[Editor's Note: You know the drill by now. If you haven't seen this episode of "Lost" yet, DON'T READ ANY FURTHER.]
Tuesday night's episode of "Lost" mostly took place in 1867, with the story of how ageless Richard Alpert came to the island. This was probably the second most highly anticipated episode for many "Losties" aside from the series finale itself, and it didn't disappoint.
One of the best parts of "Ab Aeterno" was the lack of any flash-sideways scene, which have been hit-or-miss thus far. Instead, we got a bonus flashback scene revealing that Jacob asked Ilana to protect the six candidates before sending her out on her quest.
Ilana was also instructed to ask Richard about what to do next. However, as we learned two weeks ago, he is officially fresh out of answers. Jack the believer was told by Richard that they're all dead and in hell. When Jack turned to Hurley for answers from Jacob, Hurley was actually conversing in Spanish with another unseen person.
Without too much ado, it's on to the big enchilada: in short, Richard lost his wife and accidentally killed a doctor on the same day. Condemned to death by hanging, even a priest offered him no comfort. At the last minute, he was saved by Magnus Hanso (great-grandfather of Alvar Hanso from the Dharma Initiative) and placed on the infamous Black Rock, which as we all know, shipwrecked on the island (taking out Jacob's statue in the process).
Between Black Rock officer Whitfield and the smoke monster, everyone but Richard dies. He's visited by his beloved wife who first tells him that they are dead and he is in hell. On the brink of death, he is touched, and saved by ... not Jacob, but the Man in Black. Once again, we see "Smokey" offering something that someone really wants in exchange for allegiance to him. The price for Richard's freedom? He must kill the "devil," Jacob.
Needless to say, Richard doesn't succeed in his quest, but Jacob does give him the gift (or curse?) of immortality. The Man in Black tells Richard that the offer to join him is always on the table, and 140 years later, Richard has changed his mind ... but not before Hurley shows up with a message from his dead wife Isabella, which keeps him, for now, on Jacob's side.
Wow. A lot to digest here ... specifically:
I could go on and on, but let's turn it over to you for now. Share your thoughts and theories on video, or in the comments below. Meanwhile, check out what iReporters have to say about it here and here.
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I think the show is moving towards the reality that there is not such thing as pure good or pure evil, that each of us is made of both and good and evil are choices we make when confronted with situations. Characters such as Ben, the priest (he was so cruel), Locke, Jack, Sayid, Charlie, Kate and Sawyer all show this. The theme of Redemption and Sin...the idea that we can never be good enough for salvation and need Grace. I just want to know how they are going to tie the moral issue/faith storyline to the time travel, physics focus which was so strong last year. Where is Desmond?
youre taking the "if you let him speak, it is already too late" line too literal. What Dogen and MIB meant when they said that is that if you let them talk, they will most likely find a way to manipulate you through what they say.
This show will not end well. There are too many expectations to meet. The writers have spent too many years getting in over their heads, with story on top of story. There is no way to wrap it up in the few episodes left unless they were all 2 hour events. In conclusion, half of us will be upset over the ending, a third will be glad it's over, and the other third, would have expected "that to happen". Lost will be the most unforgettable and talked about show...mission accomplished!
Maybe... Jacob is the bottle.
God! I hate this show! Tried to follow it's erratic, unbelievable, confusing story at the begining!
-if locke had to be brought back to the island so that mib could take his form (like jack's father), how can mib take the form of richard's wife to mess with his head? her body was never on the island. eko' brother's body was on the island, so i guess that's why he was able to take his form...
-i assume they are going to explain Ilana and her prior injuries at some point
so what about the people who died on the island? do they go to heaven?
where are they now?
In the book of Job (Iyov), ha-satan ("the accuser") is the title of an angel submitted to God. In Judaism ha-satan does not make evil, rather points out to God the evil inclinations and actions of humankind. In essence ha-satan has no power unless humans do evil things. After God places a wager with Satan about Job's piety, God gives "ha-satan" permission to test the faith of Job. The righteous man is afflicted with loss of family, property, and later, health, but he still stays faithful to God. At the conclusion of this book God appears as a whirlwind, explaining to all that divine justice is inscrutable. In the epilogue Job's possessions are restored and he has a second family to replace the one that died. (Wiki)
Lost is awesome and this was one of the best episodes ever.
Religion is the ultimate science fiction, yet people complain about the religious overtones of this season. Most nerds would be happy if Smokey was a collection of semi-organic nanobots sent to the island through a wormhole from the future. But give it just a hint of religious overtones and the world is ending! Evil exists......Good exists.......and it is never that black and white. The question of "Why do people do what they do?" has always been apart of Lost and religion is the ultimate explanation for many people.
Now, lets see.....The reason why the Dharma Initiative were on the Island HAS been explained.
Why were the Dharma killed? Its been hinted at and pretty much explained........they were doing things they should not have been doing TO the island, things they were prohibited from doing.
Here is one theory I do have though. Smokey was described as a "security system" for a long time. I wonder if the MIB had someone how been "seperated" from smokey and locked up in that cabin, and Smokey was being "used" as a security system by the Others. And when Ben and Locke went into that cabin and Locke heard "Help me", that was MIB trying to get back out. And he did.......when they disturbed the ash. However this still does not explain the whole "whisper" in the ancient toilet and HERE COMES SMOKEY!!! moment....unless MIB was still playing the role of "locked up" even though he wasnt.
Let me state this again because some people are still confused.
When we first actually SAW Jacob and MIB, (for the first time in last season's finale) they were sitting on a beach. A ship was in the distance. THE NAME OF THAT SHIP WAS NEVER SHOWN!!!!!! Most people ASSUMED it was the Black Rock, but it was never shown or told to be that. As Jacob stated in this weeks episode, other people had been to the island BEFORE Ricardo. How do you think they got there, by plane? In 1867? Lol! Nope, BY BOAT. So how was one ship shown in the day and the other in a storm at night? TWO DIFFERENT SHIPS AT 2 DIFFERENT TIMEs!!! Seriously, I think some people either look too hard or dont look at all!
I'm confident the writers of LOST are aware that Ram Dass, who now lives on the island of Maui, was born Richard Alpert.
As Alpert, he (along with Timothy Leary) taught at Harvard and experimented with LSD in the 60's. Alpert wrote "Be Here Now". a cult favorite of the 60's Hippie movement. He and Leary were later kicked out of Harvard and Alpert went to India, found his Guru who named him Ram Dass which means Servant of God.
After suffering a stroke Ram Dass moved to Maui to heal and continue his spiritual path, writing "Still Here". He gives frequent talks and has a large following of spiritual believers.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-7
One thing everthing everyone is over looking is the egyptians symbolism. The statue was the eyguptian good Seth and brother was Osiris. Seth killed Osiris sound familer? Seth is also the god of Chaos. Also they showed the island was sunk in the begining of the season. Atlantis was sunk and Homer watched it sink. The island seems to form to the needs of the people on it. Jacob's light house and the temple magically appear...you need to be a certain heading to get off the island. Then there are the flash sideways. He is my thinking on the island..it is the place where all relaties converage...some good some evil..
my real question about Eloise is why her and Whitmore got kicked off the island in the first place? She might of left because she was pregnant with Daniel but what happened to Whitmore and then what happened to the both of them after they were both gone???
Why haven't we seen Eloise Hawking in any of these storylines? Remember a couple of seasons ago she seemed to be very involved in tracking the island, moving it around in that fancy room with the weights and pullies. I think she needs to show up again before this ends.
A lot of religious signs in this episode – I like how Jacob "baptized" Richard when he thought he was dead.
Take a look at the Riverworld series. That makes more sense..
Though I think Farmer ran out of ideas and botched the final volume.
Why the mythology. Egyptian hieroglyphs etc.. Silly.
Ridiculous. Nonsense. We were waiting for this......So how does Dharma fit in. And U.S. soldiers. an atomic bomb in Hell? And of course one can easily go from the mainland to hell on the sub.
What a bunch of brain dead writers.... I expected a lot more intelligence.
Regarding the comment about Richard's eyeliner, or lack thereof. I have the episode on now, and I don't care what he claims about thick eyelashes; the closeup leaves not doubt he is wearing it. That being said, he wears it well!
I thought the comment about Richard being baptized by Jacob was interesting, but Jacob dunks Richard four times, not three. I guess it is Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and one extra for trying to stab Jacob.
Whatever it is, the show has been a great ride.
Hi. I like farts.
just like this post...too many people are taking this TV show much too seriously. Enjoy and watch...or don't.
That is all...
It's not purgatory, folks. We know this because the producers have specifically debunked the purgatory theory. Also, even though Richard believed himself dead, Jacob made a point of proving to him that he wasn't, so obviously the "we're dead" thing is supposed to show us Richard's desperate frame of mind.
I tried to read all of the posts, may have missed if anyone said: Isn't the Quan baby a girl? If so (not being gender biased) can she really be part of the new Jacob MIB team? And for all the poeople who complain about the postings, I don't recall anyone saying you HAD to read them.
Why did the priest take Richard's Bible????
"In the flash sideways, he should still be alive but we haven't seen him yet."
Not if his mother didn't make it off the island before the bomb went off.
I should probably correct myself regarding Faraday. I assumed he's alive in the flash sideways though that's not a certainty. I based that assumption mostly on the fact I read Faraday is supposed to make an appearance this season. However, that appearance could easily be in some sort of flashback as opposed to the flash sideways.
Speculations on Jacob & MIB: I don’t think that there will be someone to the next MIB. The MIB is alive but has no body. Therefore he cannot be killed. Sure, he can assume the shape of anything he likes but he has no body. This could be why the babies on the island die in utero. It could be that these are his attempts to gain a body of his own.
Jacob on the other hand did in fact die. And his replacement will also be someone who is alive. Will the new Jacob also be called Jacob? Or will they go by their own name? If so, then was there someone before Jacob who protected the island?
On the good vs evil: If the MIB is the “evil one” it make sense that he would try to influence people to do evil so he can claim them as his. Jacob say that he doesn’t interfere, and it seems to me that this is how GOD would do things. How many times have I heard someone say, “How could GOD let this happen?” when something terrible happens in the world. If GOD stopped a man from murdering another man, how could that man be judged a murderer. As Jacob said, “We all have a choice.”
Here's another thing that bugs me. In last nights story we learn that all Richard wanted was to stay alive forever so he didn't die and go to hell. But at the beginning, with everyone on the beach, he tells them that he is mad because Jacob told him he had a plan and now that Jacob is gone it proves his life was meaningless. His life was always meaningless, he got what he wanted from Jacob.
I need some help here, after seeing the last episode (all about Richard):
If Jacob is the good thing and Richard had been working for him,
Why Richard convinced Ben to kill the Darma members?
Pay attention, the Darma members weren't killed by the smoke thing,
on the contrary,we can assume that Jacob signed their dead sentence.
I do not trust Jacob!
I prefer for now to follow the black thing.Who's with me?
While you mentioned that you loved the score during Richard and Isabella's reunion, I was a little dismayed to hear it ringing too close to a cue from Giacchino's "Star Trek" score.
@Bulloch – Faraday was killed last season. He was shot by his mother (Eloise) on the island in 1977 though she didn't know he was her son at the time.
In the flash sideways, he should still be alive but we haven't seen him yet.
Awesome acting by Nestor Carbonelle he really shined last night. Ben and now Richard. The Actors in this group are wonderful. Last night I love the story line but I do have one question: What was with the white rock that Richard gave MIB from Jacob? what did that mean?
If Bob Newhart wakes up from a dream or Patrick Duffy shows up in the shower in the last episode, I'll be terribly disappointed.
Drive Shaft – Charlie (my favorite character) was only said to be seen in this season, not that he would actually come back. He has been seen, he was seen in the flash sideways on the airplane being saved by Jack.
Sadly, I think that is all we will see of him
Obviously, Nikki and Paulo will come back to life and become the new Jacob and MIB.
Or better yet, Boone and his siter Shannon. Lord knows she can't act in any other roles...
"BTW, anyone ever wonder what happened to Faraday? Seems like he just sorta got phased out of the whole story..."
If you're talking about in the flash sideways, I assume his mother, as one of the Others, died on the island when the bomb went off. Since she died, she never gave birth, and thus no Faraday.
I can't remember if Widmore was on the island at that time, but I previously thought he wasn't at that point.
"That is because Jacob didn't visit them I believe...Only those he visited, the 6 final candidates, had different lives without Jacob's visit in the sideways flash."
Jacob did visit Kate when she was young. She shoplifted a lunchbox and got caught. Jacob paid for it and said to Kate, "You're not going to steal anymore are you?" Kate shook her head no, and Jacob replied "Be good Katie."
Oh yeah, I totally forgot that...
Jacob comes off as the God of the book of Job, betting the devil that he can find a righteous man. Not a very flattering portrait of Jacob.
I get the feeling this is going to be nothing more than theories right up to the last 5 minutes of the series. I just hope it didn't build up this far just to let us down with some weak rap-up (thanks Jericho).
BTW, anyone ever wonder what happened to Faraday? Seems like he just sorta got phased out of the whole story...
Will – the island is not purgatory. The writers have stated MANY times this was not going to happen.
Also, I presume you were referring to Zeus and Hades, right?
I don't think the island is hell. If anything, it can be purgatory. I admit I have missed A LOT of episodes of Lost, and I don't know how strong the religions references have been. Have they ever mentioned about getting off the island into a better place or similar to that? If they were in hell, they would not have hope and they'd know they will never get off that island. But, I think they know they can get out of there once they find out more about it, so that's why I think it could be Purgatory.
Maybe the island is just what it is, an island. People who survived a plane crash and went insane. The thing is, I think the writers wrote the story this way so that they will have room for anything, which is a very smart idea. At this point, anything is possible.
2) Survivors who went insane due to their past mistakes
3) Some island from the future
4) It could even be Atlantis? Some people said it could be underwater so never know?
5) People who were part of an experiment.
6) I agree with the person who posted that this could be the jail system of the future.
There are many possibilities and I think the writers just left all of their options open so that they wouldn't have to be pressured into writing an extremely original ending. Anything they came up with could be as original as it will ever get.
Perhaps it was just their imagination or a virtual game of the future. I have no idea, but I will be watching the last episodes, for sure.
My thoughts are that Jack will be left standing (or sitting) at the end. Think about it... Shepard, i.e. Jesus, i.e. flock, i.e. followers. Sawyer (so called) will probably kill F-Locke and be sitting next to him, as neither of them have anything to return home for. Also, the black people and the ladies are just foils for the good looking white guys, so we'll never see Rose, Walt, or Michael again except as flashbacks. I imagine that the show is so confused story wise that they'll do a Six Feet under-like flash forward at the end of the finale so that everything is tied up all neat in a bow and nobody will be left wondering anything. We as a people hate to be left with ambiguity and they know that. To me it's OK if it's not resolved as its been a good ride and with all these characters what is resolution anyway? The good evil, smoke, rock angle has, as people have said above done away with any reason to ever address the Dharma thing again. I find Whidmore unappealing, but they'll have to focus on him a little more so we can get to his motivations. I'm at once bored, frustrated and riveted.
this episode starts to complete the circle with Hurley in the center , it has haunted me since seeing it
Mauro – The island can and has changed locations throughout time.
Snorlax – Strange comment. Don't watch then.
Scott T – MIB is not in Locke's body, he is just imitating him. We saw that Locke's body was still in the special coffin container from the plane.
Enough Already – Everyone has died on the Island up to that point, after that point in 1867 not everyone that ends up on the Island dies.
Darkstar – Jacob might have just been using an example that 1867 Ricardo could understand and comprehend. Ricardo already had hell on the brain and thought he was in Hell, so what better topic concept to use than that to "explain" the "evil" the island is containing from the world.
Hurley is the person I don't understand. Ever single one of them either has something bad in thier past or some hatred towards someone, but Hurley. Hurley was just a nobody who got some numbers from someone in a mental hospital and went on to win a lottery.
More than any other character (and I like most of them) I want Hurley explained.
Jacob did visit Kate when she was young. She shoplifted a lunchbox and got caught. Jacob paid for it and said to Kate, "You're not going to steal anymore are you?" Kate shook her head no, and Jacob replied "Be good Katie."
About the 1867 date. It did seem odd. And if it wasn't a mistake, why make it so vague? Simply making it 1767 would make more sense. Why leave it to us to figure out what they mean by his saying "New World" if not to mean North America? Seems unnecessarily unclear.
The Island is purgatory! Jacob is God, and the Man in Black is the Devil. Why are they on the island, i have no idea, but I cant wait to find out!!
@ Joy: Richard Has had 100+ years to get rid of that accent, i think that's more then enough time
I just want to say there has been a huge increase in intelligent posts this week, its really shocking. Personally im sick of the morons thinking the ending will be just like Dallas or that sawyer will be the new MIB telling jack he wants to kill him bla bla bla.
If i remember right they already shot that last scene a long time ago with Walt and jack (while walt was still young)
also people that think the writers are not thinking it through dont know that the outline was written before the first ep.
Keep up the good work and theories fans!
Wasn't Charlie supposed to make a come back in the final season?
What happened to Desmond and Penny?
Where is Juliet in the flash sideways?
I have a feeling that Charlie will making an appearance soon; remember his brother asking about him at the police station in the flash sideways?
"4) fractal Soup – I really like your idea of the island being a prison. It does not necessarily mean that it was built by beings from the future but it is a plausible theory nonetheless. The electromechanical properties of the island certainly support this theory. The EM forces were placed within the island to contain the MIB/SM however were disturbed by DHARMA's drilling and therefore needed to be contained by the cement cap and a "relief valve" that became the hatch and the countdown mechanism. Jacob is the warden and he's looking for his replacement, someone whose free will is not corruptable."
I agree. If you remember in season two, as a result of dreams that Echo had of his dead brother, Echo brought Locke to the Pearl station where Locke's faith in the punching of numbers in the hatch was destroyed by the videos suggesting that it was all an experiment. I think the MiB gave Echo those dreams as part of his plan to use Locke and later Ben to get off the island.
OMGOODNESS!! lol but when I was watching last nights episode I was totally thinking of the story of Job. Everything that everyone theorizes could be true but I think in the end no one will be right what so ever. I can't wait for the finale and yet I don't want it to be over!!!
Any Idea what is going on with Sayyid?
he just sat there while Claire was trying to kill Kate.
IS he morphing into something Evil?
When talking about the MIB and jacob, we keep seeing the "White rocks" and the "black rocks" like the ones on the scale in the cave...has anyone put together that the ship that Richand came in on was called "THE BLACK ROCK"! Just a thought
""- Richard had to be talking about the US. Otherwise, the need to learn English would not have been as strong. I also believe that they goofed on the date. The clothing was not right, nor was the phrasing.""
First, the writers do a good job of being accurate.
There were still plenty of places around the world that slavery was still happening, even to this day; it's just not LEGAL.
Also, this show is science fiction so they can write almost anything they want and then make it real.
But, I do believe that they pull from several modalities of religion, fiction and fact.
Its is what makes so damn interesting to watch...
"Of the "flash-sideways" timelines, Jack's life is substantially different, Sawyer's life is substantially different, Ben's life ditto, Hurley (we haven't seen much) but there have been a few references that his bad luck (apart from winning the lottery) that plagued his original "flash-back" storyline is gone. However, Kate's life is unchanged, still a fugitive, no life-altering decisions in her past. Claire's life is unchanged, still pregnant and unmarried, traveling to L.A. with the intent of giving her child up for adoption."
That is because Jacob didn't visit them I believe...Only those he visited, the 6 final candidates, had different lives without Jacob's visit in the sideways flash.
I am not sure if it will tie into the story, but Richard came from Tenerife in the Canary Islands. This is the location where a Pair of 747s Collide in Worst Air Disaster of 20th Century on March 27, 1977. Coincidentally the same year that they all warped back to Dharma group.
Could be some dis-information tossed in there by the LOST writers...
Remember back around Season 2 when the creators said everything could be explained logically? They better hurry up.
"I think the point has been made that all the survivors are, in a way, pretty bad. Adultry, cons, hitmen etc. And we also know that Jacob has been watching them for a long time. The ting is, in the parallel, they are good honest people! Sawyer a lawman, Ben a decent teacher etc-so why did Jacobs touch make them bad people? Jacob Must te the bad guy – right?"
I disagree. Yes, a number of the survivors had dark sides, but others didn't. Locke wasn't bad. He was a man with anger issues, but he wasn't bad.
Hurley certainly isn't a bad person in any way. Michael and Walt weren't portayed as bad in their lives before the island.
And although Jack had his faults, he certainly wasn't bad. He struggled with things including his marriage, but he wasn't bad.
God, this show is so stupid. I can't believe this crap is still going on...
Regarding the Black Rock: When Jacob and MIB saw it, it was sunny on the beach, but behind the Black Rock the sky was dark and even on the beach it was blowing up a storm.
Regarding Jacob and MIB's eating habits, before he died Jacob was apparently a man, while MIB said his body had been taken away from him, so I think that would preclude his eating. So when Jacob offered MIB th efish on the beach, it wasn't very kind.
Haven't read all posts, so maybe somebody else has thought of this.
I, also, thought 1867 seemed late but I'll let that go for now. As to how the ship got to the island when it's in a different ocean, there are two plausible answers (although, I'm not sure plausibility is a pre-requisite for this show).
1: The Panama Canal had not yet been built. Ships bound for Pacific Coast ports often sailed around the southern tip of South America, well known for hostile winds and treacherous currents; it's not named Tierra del Fuego (land of fire) for nothing. It was not unusual for ships that safely navigated that passage (not all did) to be flung far - yes, possibly that far - off course.
2 (my personal favorite): Because of the factors in item 1, it was also not usual for ships headed to our west coast to sail around the tip of Africa and through the Indian Ocean to the cross the Pacific. A much longer voyage, to be sure, be generally calmer and potentially safer. They might have made a stop in Australia, then a British prison colony, for supplies and possibly trading for prisoners (like w/Richard on the Canary Islands), so it's quite possible that this ship wrecked on the island on its way to (New World) America after departing from - you guessed it - Sydney!
The island moves in space and in time...I wonder if it "floats" between universes? Maybe BOTH time lines being shown are "real"? Maybe the island is a nexus point between universes...? Maybe in one universe the nuke actually really DID cause it to sink, but in the current universe it is fine...?
I think the point has been made that all the survivors are, in a way, pretty bad. Adultry, cons, hitmen etc. And we also know that Jacob has been watching them for a long time. The ting is, in the parallel, they are good honest people! Sawyer a lawman, Ben a decent teacher etc-so why did Jacobs touch make them bad people? Jacob Must te the bad guy – right?
Frog: the ending hasn't happened yet. To spend 5 1/2 years watching the show and then to give up with 1/2 a season left is absurd. Nobody knows what the ending is yet – whether it will be religious or religious themed or anything for that matter.
"Perhaps "new world" refers to Austrailia 1867. This is where a prisoner might go. It helps explain how they ended up in the Pacific."
Good point. I read online today that the New World was used to refer to the Americas and Australia.
"Lost" sounds like a tribute to the late Octavia E. Butler (1947-2006). The series' characters and their struggle over immortality, power, enslavement, good/evil, and community, so mirrors that of the following persons and plots in Ms. Butler's stories:
1. The immortal MiB who "steals bodies" - see Doro in the "Patternist" series (1974 – 1980)
2. Supernatural time travel, sideways flash backs, and parallel universes - see "Kindred" (1979)
3. Dystopian and post-apocalyptic elements - reference the "Parable" series (1994)
...just a thought...
"I also think that John Locke made some deal with MIB prior to the first crash and that is why he was able to walk."
I don't think so. We know the island had healing powers, plus Locke was a candidate. The island/Jacob could have healed Locke.
Or the MiB could have healed Locke without a deal. If you go back to the earlier seasons, it's clear that Locke was often used as a tool by the MiB (or Jacob) in what was going on. He's more useful as a tool if he's walking.
And Locke didn't act as a man with a deal with a powerful being. He acted like a lost soul who put his faith in a number of things but constandly was let down.
OMG – Amazing show. Thank you to the writers and producers, and especially to Richard (don't know the actor's name), for such a wonderful show. So many questions answered, and yet, so many new questions. I love that part of Lost – it leaves you .... satisfied!?!?!
After this episode....I have given up watching it...
Any ending that is based on religion..and crap like that ..just kills it for me......seriously..come up w/ something better and more creative then giving a dang ending that falls on this kind of crap...
Lost has been..well lost....
Ok. My question is in regard to the cabin vs. the statue. The cabin was always surrounded by a ring of ash. Was this to keep the black smoke out or in? It was always called "Jacob's Cabin", but it seems that the base of the statue is where he actually lives. And the overall look/feel of the cabin is a bit dark/scary and not in line with a "good" spirit. AND we did see Christian in multiple locations on the island, both inside and out of the cabin. Jacob himself never seemed in any danger of the MIB, so why surround "his" cabin with the ash? AND, in the episode "Man Behind the Curtain" when Ben takes Locke to the cabin for the first time, Locke actually sees someone in the chair who neither resembles MIB or Jacob...however, if you freeze the frame, it looks a bit like Locke with hair and a beard. AND (sorry) what's up with the "HELP ME?" Locke heard? What does that mean and who said it?
BTW, to those thinking that MiB may be a force for good based upon the fact that Jacob doesn't appear to be the bastion of goodness. To the extent that this show is based on the Old Testament, God wasn't the most merciful of beings in the Old Testament either.
Perhaps "new world" refers to Austrailia 1867. This is where a prisoner might go. It helps explain how they ended up in the Pacific.
I think that those of you that think or want Jacob to be the bad guy and the MIB the good guy are John Locke fans so you can’t see things clearly… Since when is the good guy a brutal murderer and liar? I only went to Sunday school for a short time as a kid but even I remember the bible/good/evil stories and that the devil or the evil one lies and gives empty promises (I will fulfill all of your hearts desire if you just do this little thing for me…) and the savior/good guy gives people free will to choose and doesn’t force (make your own choices and I don’t interfere, even if its painful to sit on the sidelines and watch you make the wrong choices but that is how people grow and it’s the journey of life). I also agree with some of you that the continuity was/is off and has been for a long time now. The writers are making it up as they go along and probably never thought that so many people would take it all so seriously…I also think that John Locke made some deal with MIB prior to the first crash and that is why he was able to walk.
when we first saw Jacob and MIB last season, they were sitting on the beach together watching a boat come in. My first thought was that was the Black Rock, but then they were sitting there in the sunshine when in reality Black Rock crashed in a storm...any ideas?
Matt: yes, the episode reminded a lot of the story of Job! Primarily with Jacob (God) trying to prove to the MiB (Satan) that it is not in everyone's human nature to be corrupt and using people who come to the island to prove it (Job).
1) To all you haters – just quit watching the show and quit wasting our time. The majority of the people posting here and elsewhere obviously enjoy the show despite all the real or perceived flaws so why do you need to bring your negativity. Just go away...
2) I posted on FB right after the episode that I felt this was the best episode of the series by far. In retrospect and after sleeping on it, my opinion has not changed one bit. Well acted, high drama, and really both intellectual and visceral at the same time. It revealed quite a bit but really left me looking forward to more (even more so than some other outstanding episodes.)
3) Re: the Black Rock: isn't it possible that the Black Rock made more than one voyage to the Island? Perhaps there is a relationship between Jacob & Hanso that goes beyond what has been revealed thus far. Perhaps Jacob is using Hanso as a means or as an agent to bring people to the island. The voyage that brought Richard to the island encountered a major storm with tremendously high and powerful waves which is how it ultimately ended up inland. The wave was tall enough to make the vessel impact the top of the statue and therefore was capable of depositing the Black Rock far inland.
4) fractal Soup – I really like your idea of the island being a prison. It does not necessarily mean that it was built by beings from the future but it is a plausible theory nonetheless. The electromechanical properties of the island certainly support this theory. The EM forces were placed within the island to contain the MIB/SM however were disturbed by DHARMA's drilling and therefore needed to be contained by the cement cap and a "relief valve" that became the hatch and the countdown mechanism. Jacob is the warden and he's looking for his replacement, someone whose free will is not corruptable.
5) In case no one noticed – HURLEY ROCKS !!!
"This episode did reveal something interesting – it seems that either Jacob, the MiB, or both, can make people see dead people (the vision of Isabella is used to trick Richard when he is still chained in the boat).Does this revelation mean that Hurley's ability to see dead people is not real and simply Jacob giving him a vision? Is it possible that at the end of the episode, it is really Jacob giving the vision of Isabella to Hurley to try to convince them that they need to prevent the MiB from escaping? "
There's a difference between making people see dead people and and appearing as a dead person. We know that the Man in Black can appear as a dead person given his current appearance as Locke. I think it's also reasonably certain based on information from the show that he has appeared as Alex, Jack's dad, and Isabella.
The show has never indicated that Jacob can appear as a dead person or that he can make people see dead people.
I think I agree with John who suspects that Smokey may actually be the force of Light. I'm still working with Smokey's choice of John Locke for a body to steal. The "Man of Faith"! Back when the son of the Christian Shepherd was the "Man of Reason." And I agree that there's something off about Jacob. Just a bit tooooo benign (well, a bit violent last night, true.)
I don't understand how anyone can say that the writers have given up, the show is lame and none of the "answers" we've all been demanding are being given to us as we'd like. THERE ARE STILL 7 OR 8 EPISODES LEFT PEOPLE!
This whole show has been unique in that nothing is spoon-fed to you. You get a taste, then they take it away and give you something else. It's very creative and ground breaking in many respects, and just because we are in the final season, that doesn't mean the show (the writers, producers etc.) OWE you anything at the moment. The show is still business as usual. We're still being fed something one bite at a time, allowed to digest it, then given something else. We may not be bouncing forwards, backwards or sideways through time, but the story is still being told in the same fashion it always has been, and will be up until the last bit of dialogue in the last episode.
And for all the Lost haters – why waster your time reading these reviews and posting?
Whatever – I thought last night's episode was the best this season and I can't wait for the rest of them. Cheers!
Someone asked what passage Richard was reading out of the bible:
The page contains a story of Jesus encountering a man possessed by a demon and ordering the demon leave the man’s body without harming him.
Excellent acting by Nestor Carbonell. I hope after Lost he shows up quickly doing something else. That's one thing about Lost, they have had some of their best scenes/acting during the "back stories" on characters. That's why I loved it right from Season1
I can't believe that you morons are arguing over whether a wooden ship destroyed the statue-did you see how high the wave was that the Black Rock was riding in on? That would destroy anything.
Great therories I am reading here. I wonder if the writers are embeded within this blog ?
I am gonna crazy cause that show xD
That is the best episode I've ever seen. An' I support Jacob in fight with MiB xP
MiB is a true evil. I see it when I am look at his face when he speaks – that bad smile xD
"Jack & Claire's dad is somehow in alliance with Jacob. Jack's dad helped Ben Linus move the donkey wheel. "
Jack's dad is dead. What you saw was the Man in Black posing as Jack's dad. Remember that he can appear as anyone dead. How else do you think Claire hooked up with the Man in Black?
As for helping Ben, that clearly was part of the Man in Black's ultimate plan to get off the island.
@ktq I guess we're on the same wavelength ;)
The difficulty of this episode is determining if anything said by Jacob or the MiB to Richard is truthful. We know that the MiB is a prisoner on the island and Jacob is his captor Both will use persuasion and deals to convince those on the island to join their respective "sides". Was the wine in the bottle analogy the truth, or was this simply the reasoning that Jacob knew Richard would accept to be convinced to be on his side? The big question for me is why the MiB is trapped on this island – and I don't think we can trust the reasoning given by his captor.
This episode did reveal something interesting – it seems that either Jacob, the MiB, or both, can make people see dead people (the vision of Isabella is used to trick Richard when he is still chained in the boat). Does this revelation mean that Hurley's ability to see dead people is not real and simply Jacob giving him a vision? Is it possible that at the end of the episode, it is really Jacob giving the vision of Isabella to Hurley to try to convince them that they need to prevent the MiB from escaping?
Did this episode create more questions than it answered?
"always wondered why the fat guy stayed really fat for several years on the island. "
Except for two things:
1) He was on the Island for far less than a year. I can't remember the exact timing, but they explained in season 4 that the actual time between when the plane crashed and when Hurley got off the island was less than 6 months, and I think closer to 4. And it hasn't been more than a week or so since he came back.
2) There was plenty of Dharma Initiative food to chow on once the hatch was blown.
I find a few things about this season curious. . .
Of the "flash-sideways" timelines, Jack's life is substantially different, Sawyer's life is substantially different, Ben's life ditto, Hurley (we haven't seen much) but there have been a few references that his bad luck (apart from winning the lottery) that plagued his original "flash-back" storyline is gone. However, Kate's life is unchanged, still a fugitive, no life-altering decisions in her past. Claire's life is unchanged, still pregnant and unmarried, traveling to L.A. with the intent of giving her child up for adoption. The parents-to-be back out but we never knew whether that would or would not have happened without the nuclear detonation that ended last season. Locke's life? Hard to say, still timid, pushed around, still paralyzed, but getting married, on good terms with dad (so why is he paralyzed?). Sayid? His life is seemingly different, but not necessarily for the better.
I found it curious last night that the dialogue MIB used to get Richard to kill Jacob was identical to what Sayid was told in killing Locke/MIB.
All the talk about Jack and Sawyer being the new Jacob & MiB don't make sense. They release ages ago that Jack was an accident and was not intended to be what he was. Kate was supposed to be the leader / hero role from the start. With that in mind, and that they stated that they knew the end of the show from the very begining, it seems highly unlikely that Jack will ultimately be the new Jacob. Not to say it's impossible that they didn't change their minds; just seems unlikely.
Nestor Carbonell (Richard) deserves an emmy for his performance in this episode!
"Snorlax "Lost" is a very liberal show. I would not watch it."
How do you know if its it 'liberal' or not you've never watched it? and if you would 'never' watch it, what are you doing on the forum about the show?
You have NO creditability. Typical
...so i see everyone's theories, but i don't have time to read all 200+ entries. did anyone else notice that jacob said he brought the ship to the island? isn't that a lie?? didn't the man in black bring the ship there (from the earlier episode where the two of them were sitting on the beach looking at the ship in the distance)? that seemed to be a big red flag for trusting jacob... great episode!!
One quick thought about which Kwon is the "Candidate." Of the other five candidates, didn't they all journey back in time, whether after Ben moved the Island or before the second plane incident?
So given that the rest of the Candidates traveled back in time and Jin did as well, doesn't that suggest that Jin is the Candidate, and not Sung?
@Patrick: Richard doesn't wear eyeliner. The bonus features for season 5 follow Nestor Carbonell around while shooting the season 5 finale. He explains that he was born with full, thick eyelashes and actually has the makeup folks tone down the thickness of his eyelashes. He's not wearing eyeliner. He commented that many fans think he does wear eyeliner but he says it's not true.
What if the Smoke monster is actually in Purgatory?? Think about it..he cannot be killed (probably already dead). He was once a person apparently. Maybe him getting off the island would be his release from Purgatory. Just a thought.
I think that some of these last episodes are going to disprove our theories, rather than show what is real. Many people thought the island was purgatory/hell, so the producers tempt us with that possibility and will rip it apart in the next episode.
Besides it can't be purgatory/hell as people die on the island. In every interpretation of purgatory/hell, if you die you come back to life to try/suffer again.
QUESTION, LOSTIES: What woman in mythology was insane and had twins? Just another thought for you :)
"At the beginning of this season, wasn't the island under water? What's up with that?"
It is underwater in the alternate timeline/flash sideways where the hydrogen bomb detonated. It's not underwater in the original timeline of the show.
There is a number of theories to time travel displayed sci fi stories. One is that you cannot change your present by sending someone back in time to change things. If you did, you would create an alternate timeline. Your future, and the past as you remembered it, would remain.
I think that's what happened here. The various Oceanic passengers (and Juliet) went back in time. They set off the hydrogen bomb to create a new timeline, but just before it went off, they traveled in time again to their future where the bomb never detonated. Their timeline forked into the original timeline and the alternate one seen in the flash sideways.
One scene that could be dissected: Jacob "drowning" Richard to prove to Richard that he doesn't really want to die. Jacob dunks Richard in the water 3 times and Richard finally states "I want to live!". This parallels baptism - in the name of the father (1), the son (2) and the holy spirit (3) and the sinner is "born again". In a later scene, Jacob tells Richard that what a man has done before coming to the island doesn't matter. After baptism, all prior sins are gone and "don't matter". Richard has been baptised by Jacob.
Although biblical references have been suggested all along I think they are getting stronger lately.
A few episodes ago – can't remember the context exactly, Jacob pretty much quoted the words of God to Satan in Job 2:6
6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
What scene was that when Jacob said "do with him what you want, but remember, you can't kill him."???
Of course there is the Ilgira flight 316 (John 3:16??) but which bible reference would the original flight 815 be??
Jack being the son of a man named "Christian" with the last name of "Shepherd" Pslam 23 (Jack's number) begins with "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want."
Jesus also says in John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep". Is the new Jacob going to lay down his life to protect the others on the island??
The MiB, Smokey, and the new Locke are all so "Satan-like" for me – the master deceiver. Cunning, captivating, deceiving, and manipulative.
I love LOST and am enjoying this wrap up immensely!!!
What I really want to know is where is Vincent the dog?
I never really comment but felt compelled to after this. There are may questions still unanswered. Firstly, the MiB and Jacob concept reminds me of the Twilight zone epsiode called "The Howling", based ona story by Charles Beaumont. Its the one where a traveller visits a monestary and one monk has his "brother" locked up in a cell, only held by a staff. The monk eventually tells the man that he has locked up the Devil. The man in the cell convinces the traveller to release him then he turns into the Devil and WWII break out. I know the writers tip their hat to the Twilight zone frequently.
However, many things don't seem to morally ad up. Clearly, the people on the island are not in hell as few of them have returned to the mainland and have returned. Leaving and returning must not be that difficult as Richard Alpert has done so on atleast 2 occasions (to meet John locke as a child and when recruiting Julia.)
The narrative seems to suggest that the Man in Black is "evil" and jacob is "good", at least to the extent that he seems to protect somewhat. But clearly results of his actions- on inaction, could be construed as possibly not good. The conversation with Richard Alpert on the beach seemd to explain that Jacob didn't want to directly interefere with people's live- that he is wants peopel to assert their freewill and his interference would compromise that. As well, Jacob has been responsible (directly or indirectly) for the deaths of many people- he let Ben kill the Dharma settlers ( or didn't interfere. Maybe that is why Widmore had to leave because he ordered the killings and Jacob did not like it but wouldn't have interfered.)
Anyway, the last 2 episode have been some of the best drama I've seen. I hope it continues to get better.
Well, I thought this episode was one of the best EVER. Can't wait for the rest!
Oh yeah, I forgot...the Bible passage shown in jail is in the Book of Luke, but I didn't catch the chapter and verse. I'd opine that it is important, so I'll be watching for the recap next week.
Wow, Nestor Carbonell is one HOT Catalan! Terrific job last night, great acting, great plot, some good answers, lots yet to contemplate. One thing's for sure: if you have watched this show from the beginning, there's NO WAY you're going to stop now!
Jacob/MIB=ying and yang, perhaps? Two sides of the same coin? I thought possibly the same person with schitzophrenia until I saw the two side by side awhile ago. Since then, I've just pondered multiple possibilities, none strongly enough to claim as my opinion.
If you go with the Biblical references, (Jacob/Esau) then remember that Jacob was a trickster. He stole Esau's birthright, among other things. And I'm not convinces that the show's Jacob is all good...not at all.
The island moves, and jumping oceans is to be expected, at least I expect it.
Now, back to falling all over Richard....my goodness but that man is just....oooooohhhhhhhhh *drool*
See you next week!
Clifton was talking about the ship that was shown when Jacob and MIB were on the beach talking. The name of that ship was not shown. "
My apologies to Clifton.
Someone wrote, "The writers have been all over the place for the entire series, it's painfully obvious they are making this up as they go along, without regard for continuity. Jacob tells Richard that everyone who has ever come to the island has died. What about the DHARMA folks, or the "Others" ..."
This can be a true statement if in fact that everyone who COMES to the island is already dead, as Richard said is true.
My observation early on (season 2) was when the brother and sister died. Remember? I had said then that the people on lost were really dead, and that when they died on the Island they were really moving on to heaven. Every one of the Losties who have died on the Island, have done so after some sort of redemptive act. Think about all the characters who have died on the Island and the circumstances surrounding their deaths.
But still, more questions. Where is Walt? He was so special to the Others...yet his storyline was kept secret. Jack & Claire's dad is somehow in alliance with Jacob. Jack's dad helped Ben Linus move the donkey wheel. At the beginning of this season, wasn't the island under water? What's up with that?
Wasn't it the "Others" who convinced Ben to murder the "Darma" folks? Does that seem a little out of character for Richard now that we know him better?
Nestor Carbonell, was great last night, he finally got to display his acting chops. The episode as usual gives answers and brings up more questions. I have to laugh at all of the different theories written here, you are all making me and yourselves crazy. Why don't you all sit back and just watch the show and let it play out? I'm loving the ride! Think about something else; like the ending world hunger and bring about world peace!!!!!!
You gotta love a show that generates so many questions. The kids are important, is one of them locked in the sub(Walt), has one of them (Claire's Baby) been the MiB the whole time (Remember on the island time is relative), is the couple in the cave two of them who chose not to leave or couldn't leave the island and die when they get flashed back(as Hurley Suggested).
I don't buy the whole purgatory thing though because they seem to be able to leave and go back to the "Real World" pretty easily. Last time I checked you can't get to purgatory on a sub.
I am betting half my questions will get answered and the other half we will have fun debating for a while (Imagine the Question at the end of the Sopranos x 100)
Everyone realizes smokey represents evil. So, everyone then (wrongly) assumes that Jacob represents good. That would mean that good is the opposite of evil. In fact good is a completely separate force. The opposite of evil is the absence of evil. Not good or bad. Simply, nothing. That is why Jacob does not interfere. He is not good is merely the absence of bad.
Best. Show. Ever.
Yes Daniel, he is Cuban. At least Nestor Carbona l(sic) is. The actor who plays Hurley is also.
I can't believe that there are so many people who are so faithful to this show that they'll scrutinize every single nuance and detail, and yet they're more than willing to ignore the gaps that are wide enough to fly a 747 through. The writers went to great lengths to make both Walt and Eko appear to be integral parts of the island mythology, and then simply discarded them without any real convincing explanation. Or how about Michael trying to kill himself, but not being able to do so? But now he's gone – don't need him anymore!
I stopped watching this show when they started playing around with time travel. Once you start introducing time travel or parallel universes, it's a clear sign that you've given up.
" Richard had to be talking about the US. Otherwise, the need to learn English would not have been as strong. I also believe that they goofed on the date. The clothing was not right, nor was the phrasing."
Yes, he could have been, but that doesn't mean the slave ship was going to the US.
"I just feel sorry for all of the people who had to watch all these pointless hours of television to get the message that television is pointless."
To those who think this way, stick to your simplistic shows that spoon feed you the story so you don't have to think. Part of the fun of watching Lost is trying to figure things out. That is much more entertaining than shutting your brain off and expecting everything to be spelled out for you. These small minded people are the ones I feel sorry for.
I think Jacob and TMIB are the same person, it's an eternal interior conflict that he involves other people in for amusement. A mix of the pagan and Jewish/Christian ideas of God(s). In the end he may just move on, and what happens to the people involved is for him irrelevant. That would be a rather mature message for any work of art, going back to the Greek theater. I hope it is not a comic book version of hell. But regardless "Lost" is and has been an unusually interesting diversion. They rarely end in a satisfactory way.
Commenting on The Black Rock was traveling from the Canaries island ( Atlantic Ocean) with Richard on board in 1867, to the new world....How did it end up in the Pacific? Isn't the "Lost" Island supposed to be in the Pacific?
--Remember...the island can move.
the island is the writers' room. there is a struggle for domination, a bending of perspective. The last episode will be 6 writers brainstorming in a beach house on Maui.
"Lets think about this no one will confirm this is hell in fact we have been told the island is a cork holding all the Evil down below it."
That was a metaphor Jacob was using to describe the situation to a very religious 19th century man. It doesn't mean it's literally like that.
We know that the Island is a prison for a great evil. But that doesn't mean it's an afterlife for dead souls, and that all those that go to the Island are dead.
To Snorlax who wrote "Lost" is a very liberal show. I would not watch it.
This is now the new DUMBEST thing I have ever seen anyone say on this site.
Bob – its JUST entertainment......teho
jeez! all these uptight literalists just need to clik out to another screen!!!
"Jacob has gotten involved in the Canidates lives, actually the flash sideways are showing what would happen to the characters if Jacob had not gotten involved. Kind of interesting."
That's not the only reason people's lives may have been different. There are a host of Dharma Initiative people (such as Ben and his father) who ended up in the US rather than staying on the Island. Those people could changes things for others as well.
Plus, with the Island gone, and if Widmore knew that, his actions would be different and the people around him could change as well.
Does anyone see a parallel in the flash sideways world where the candidates are now good and did the right thing?
Sawyer chose to be a cop vs. a criminal
Ben chose to save Alex unlike on the island
Jack chosing to deal with problems with his son
Sayid no longer is a torturer
Hurley now has good luck with the fortune and not bad luck
Jin (assuming is a restaurant owner bc we see him locked in a freezer in a restaurant) could have been on his way with money to repay the loan shark ... instead of being a hired killer for Sun's father..
These candidates all do the right thing (like Jacob said) in sideways world....
Just something to think about
Seems people are missing the Yin/Yang scenario. The Man in Black gets white rock and the Man in White (being the opposite of the Man In Black) gets the black rock.
I'll weigh in here.
(Child MIB chases in the Sawyer episode): Good
Good: cannot play any part of the game due to innocence, only remind the players of the rules.
Evil: Will do anything within rules to win regardless of time.
Balance: keeps it all in check regardless of sacrifice or murder.
This all came to light during the sayid episode when Doogan (sp, temple leader) explained to Sayid about balance and he was wearing no glove and one black glove. Hey I could be reading to much into it, but no different then most losties ;) Also, I believe at one point in time, the island was Atlantis.
The acting in this episode (especially by the guy who played Ricardo) is easily the best we've seen in the entire show. Hope he gets an emmy nod at the end of the year.
"Also, it appears as if the Black Rock crashes into the statue during the tsunami. How does the Black Rock land in such good condition? How can people survive that? It doesn't seem likely."
Is it less likely than a plane splitting in half mid-air, and people surviving with scratches more likely? If you can accept the first episode of this series, you should accept this.
@BrianisLost – chill out, dude!
So I work with these 2 girls lets call them RF and SG! They love this show and won't stop talking about it! They remind me of the Smoke Monster and Jacob.... I hope it turns out that the Smoke is actually the one saving these people from this goofy island where nothing ever makes since..... Can't wait for it to be over!
"My question is this, if Richard is being sold as a slave in Cuba or Brazil, why would he need to know English? Didn't they make a point about this as Richard was being sold into slavery?"
The man he was being sold to, Magnus Hanso, wanted an english speaker for some reason. Probably because he preferred to speak English and wanted to be able communicate with his slaves for whatever they were doing.
I always wondered why the fat guy stayed really fat for several years on the island. I always joked that they aren't on a real island because he would have lost the weight. If it's purgatory, then that means his body wouldn't change since he's dead.
It's a shame. He could have used that time to seriously lose weight, but I'm sure they paid him well to compensate for it....
One big question I thought they would tackle last night is why Richard wears eyeliner.
I don't think Jacob is the good guy here. If you were in hell but were free to leave, and someone constantly made you stay (or worse yet brought you back), wouldn't that person be the devil?
This LOST episode was excellent. The classic struggle of good v. evil. Obviously, the writers are obsessed with themes from religion and Christianity.
Someone asked: The Black Rock was supposed to sail from the Canary Islands to the New World. How did it end up in the Pacific?
Richard thought he was going to the New World, but the captain lied and took the course around the Cape of Good Hope (S. Africa) heading East, not West.
I think the religious symbolism fascinates me because its so academic... just like all of the other allusions, to social sciences, behaviorism, art, anthropology, etc. But I also think that the religious tones in the episode (which was my FAVORITE ever!) are actually another red herring. As one of my lit professors said to me, stop looking for obvious analogies. I'm still stuck on the fact that the writers claimed to be influenced by Myst.... the two brothers, both trying to convince everyone that the OTHER one is evil because if they can get someone to be in their place, they get freed; but it entraps someone else. So they lie and make it seem like their brother trapped them, so that they can convince the gameplayer to trade places with them... and who trapped them? Their father.
That aside, remember that the reason they took Claire was to give her medicine so that the baby would NOT be "infected" and die. They brought Juliet to the island to try to solve the problem of babyies dying in utero... and in her first episode she was mad at Ben because she believed "we still have free will" (remember the book club?). So Claire was infected at some point, and it sounds like long before she gave birth to Aaron, which is why she abandoned him and took up with sir-smokesalot. They others stole the kids (including Alex) to "protect" them and kept them at the temple... so smokey, for one thing, does not like children. I'd like to know why...
But my current question is this: in the flash sideways, Sawyer is a good guy. Kate's on the lamb. Jack is a little morally questionable. Sayid is a good guy.... almost like they all swapped whatever moral compass point they had... does this have to do with confession? Confess and you can change? Richard confessed easily and early... is this why he was brought?
For those who get "confused" and then decide that it must be because they are "winging it" or the show is "stupid" or "liberal," I'd just say this: go to college. Smart, educated people get it. Not every show on tv has to be for the great mass of averageness that is you. You've already got Fox.
Well, we are now down to the last 7 episodes. I was glad to see how Ricardo/Ricardis/Richard got there and what his story was. But of course now there are more questions.
As we wind this down, I remember the first episodes with Jacob and The Man in Black (who we didn't know as the smokie yet) I felt that they had been there a very long time, like from Greek or Roman times maybe. Jacob called Richard "Ricardis/us" which may be a latin variation of his name. That was a hint I got last night.
Are these two basically Cain and Able, or some reference to good and evil for all belief systems. Who was Jacob? What is the man in blacks name?
I am hoping this will finally get covered in the last few episodes.
Now, who out of the remaining 6 will be the new caretaker? I hope it's either Jack or Hurley, or both.
Fantastic Episode – Nestor Carbonell was fantastic! – I've waited a long time to find some answers regarding Richard Alpert. For all the hype – this episode actually delivered. I'm still not convinced that MiB is the true evil entity on this island however.
If anyway is confussed about the alternate time line just watch Back to the Future. Doc Brown gives a great time travel 101 explanation.
Could MIB have been posing as Richards wife?
I have loved this show since the beginning; however, it seems a little too black and white (pardon the pun) that the MIB is bad and Jacob is good. After all the twists and turns we've been on since the show started, it is just too simple.
My prediction for the season finale is that it will be left open ended and people will have to come up with their own interpretations. It's all a metaphor for life, death and your personal belief system.
We know that the numbers represent a character on the island – as seen on the cave walls and in the light house – but how did that set of numbers appear to come into the real world way before the jet crashing – be bad luck to anyone who used the numbers and why were the numbers on the hatch when they dug it up? It seems the numbers are used by both Jacob and MIB.
I bring this up as one example of questions given to viewers and wondering how they might tie it all together. After last nite excellent show – I think questions like this might never get addresss and it will go out as a good vs evil ending which I agree with others – be a cop out.
I admit its been a while since ive watched, but I've always speculated that this isnt about GOD, purgatory or heaven & hell, as most people "think" of it. But rather, reality...that people have the ability to be evil or good, we have choices and we make them and sometimes, we pretend like we didnt. Humans would rather pretend that the darnkess in this world is from another world – and this "devil" tempts us...rather than humans tempting each other, rather than humans making choices and owning them. I've heard more than enough people who considered themselves "christians" say: If there was no god, man would just kill each other off. As if, the only reason NOT to kill another human, was some GOD watching you. I happen to think there's a billion reasons why you shouldnt kill another human being...the least of it being, some GOD watching me.
I think that LOST is really just a large scale art project about the pointlessness of serialized television programs. If, in the show, the Island is the gateway to hell, then that's perfect.
I just feel sorry for all of the people who had to watch all these pointless hours of television to get the message that television is pointless.
Hey, did I miss something? Where were Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith?
I've stopped trying to figure it all out, because there is just too much information to try and comprehend. The writers already said not all the questions will be answered. I'm just on for the ride!
maybe Jacob and richard have more incommon than you think. Richard killed a man but was sorry for it and he was going to go to hell. Maybe he belileved that he belonged there.
jacob could have done the same and his punishment was to go to hell. there he met the MIB and decided that he needed to do the right thing and stay to keep the MIB from infecting the world.
now with jacob gone, richard might be the one to take over that job. All the people on the island have done something wrong in their past, maybe they all have the goodness in their hearts to stay on the island to keep the evil from getting out!
Way too many negative nancys still watching this show only to whine and complain on CNN of all places...
If you don't like it, don't watch it and bitch to people who are still entertained and intrigued by the concepts presented by the writers/producers/directors/actors...
They have had this show outlined since day one, only to alter it accordingly due to the faults of the actors or just to stay one up on all the fanboys out there who continue to try to solve the puzzle before receiving all the pieces...
For those of you who have offered credible and intellectual insight in regards to this television masterpiece, I applaud and commend you... Much thanks goes out to those who have offered new approaches to the outcome of this series and have not taken the religious implications as literally as the religious fanatics who watch the show have... It is obvious that the finale will be bigger than the religions we are all well accustomed to (which isn't hard to do as these religions are mere fairytales in themselves)... I foresee science redeeming itself in the following episodes giving the viewers an answer that will both satisfy them while at the same time leaving them with a social inquiry that may last a lifetime...
And Jane, the episodes aren't captioned when you watch them fresh... There are two episodes on each Tuesday night, the first being the episode from the week before and the following episode being the new one for the week... The first episode is captioned only to help the folks like yourself "get" the show without the necessary use of their brain...
...and it is obviously that you don't know many Lost fans...
This is probably the best LOST episode ever until we see the final. It had so much information for once and I for one will have to watch it several times to catch everything that was in it. Let me tell you, I switched over to a flat panel TV and get HD service and this show is just made for this technology. Watching it any other way just does not do this show justice.
A further question about Richard and slavery...Slavery wasn't abolished in Brazil or Cuba until after 1867, although the slave trade was illegal. It has also been established on this board that both Cuba and Brazil were considered the "New World". The chances of Richard illegally sold as a slave in Brazil or Cuba are slight, but I'll bite...My question is this, if Richard is being sold as a slave in Cuba or Brazil, why would he need to know English? Didn't they make a point about this as Richard was being sold into slavery?
Also, it appears as if the Black Rock crashes into the statue during the tsunami. How does the Black Rock land in such good condition? How can people survive that? It doesn't seem likely.
Is this also how the statue is destroyed? How is a stone statued decimated but the wooden ship comes out in almost one piece?
I agree with some of you, I think Jacob is the actual devil and not the man in the black clothes. The devil will never act or behave like the devil in order to gain your trust. Besides, think about it, if Richard is right and they are in HELL, then who want you to stay in HELL and who wants to help you leave.
I've followed every episode closely and Richard did the best job of anyone on the show thus far. My belief is, like everyone else, that the island and its inhabitants are all of the spiritual realm. While it is easy to say that Jacob represents God (or a savior of some kind), Smokey the Devil and the islands visitors possible disciples of God (Moses, Abraham, Jesus, etc), that seems too easy at this point. I don't think the island is purgatory either, that wouldn't fit well with the course of the show because in Purgatory, there isn't (supposed to bed) as much suffering as we've seen. Only a couple months left until we know for sure... or never know at all!
Jacob has gotten involved in the Canidates lives, actually the flash sideways are showing what would happen to the characters if Jacob had not gotten involved. Kind of interesting.
Also the Black Rock would have to remain anchored off the shore of the island, a ship like that would not be able to "dock" anywhere on the island, so the ship would be vunerable to a storm at any point.
I love the bottle analogy, I love how the show is merging science and religion. I love the idea that there could be a physical place on this earth that is holding back an evil power. I love how certain people will stop at nothing to get back to this place to do god knows what.
The Quon baby is actually the Kwon baby.
"Get your facts straight before you post."
Someone mentioned Sawyer being the new MIB eventually...I think we are still missing something here, Sawyer isn't really Sawyer, that is the name of the guy he is looking for. Remember he is a Cop, and he fly to Austraila to find the guy who had something to do with he's parents getting murdered. So WHO is Sawyer, really? I think it's going to come down to another Dharma test experiment, The End.
There are still some big ?'s left to be answered. Hugo? why does he see dead people? The Asian couple, one's not a candidate? and yes the guy in the sub?
Ok here's my curve ball.
Seeing that Jacob is now dead, The Devil Aka Charles Whitmore has come to up from the depth of hell in the sub to the surface to help the MIB off the island and take over the all the souls of earth. Until 1 of the replacements "Jack is my best guess" steps into the role of Jacob and Stops them from leaving.
Lets think about this no one will confirm this is hell in fact we have been told the island is a cork holding all the Evil down below it.
Everyone on the Island has a life that continues on the mainland reason for this could be that they have had their souls taken from them or maybe they made a deal with the devil in exchange for their Souls which could explain Hugo's Luck and the Island is acting as Purgatory waiting for their lives to end before Sending their Souls to hell.
I could keep going but I think I would confuse myself even more than I have already done
Clifton was talking about the ship that was shown when Jacob and MIB were on the beach talking. The name of that ship was not shown.
It doesn't really make sense that the ship would reach the island if it traveled to either North America, or South America, unless it went by way around Africa through the Indian ocean. Quinn's comment about the island "moving" would be the only good explanation for the Pacific route.
Actually, it is Kwon, not Quon. And a girl.
Brian: "The New World was the name for both North and South America, not just the United States. People could still have slaves in South or Central America."
– Richard had to be talking about the US. Otherwise, the need to learn English would not have been as strong. I also believe that they goofed on the date. The clothing was not right, nor was the phrasing.
Overall, wonderful episode. I would like to see more questions being answered than the constant theme of Jacob vs. MIB.
I just watched the beach scene where Jacob and MIB are sitting on the beach and there is at no point any shot that shows the name of the ship. So it could be an earlier ship. Also it could be the Black Rock and the storm comes in right after the scene. They are pretty far from land there.
Best episode EVER EVER EVER
I bet the series will end with MIB actually getting off the island and out into the world...which will give birth to a spinoff series centered on finding and containing him again.
It's NOT purgatory....Carlton Cuse said this years ago. I think the only reason why the MIB told him that was because Richard was a religious man and would do anything not to be in hell. Remember, the MIB (or so we can assume) has had other dead people appear to convince someone to do something (remember when Ben's daughter appeared to him last season or when Mr. Eko's brother appeared to him).
Great episode....all lot of questions answered
I think that the folks caught in the middle will finally get fed up with being the pawns of both Jacob and MIB. This would potentially result in some sort of revolt against the two in the end....
If everyone is saying its not literal if MIB/smoke not talk before killing because they he can persuade man – then how come when he was stabbed after talking to Sayid he didnt die? To me it seems it is in fact literal.
The "game" played between Jacob and MiB decides their fate: those who choose the dark side are LOST to it, hence the name of the series.
The Flash Sideways are what happened if the island was blown up in 1977. So whatever happened as a result is what we see in the Flash sideways, not just that the plane didn't crash. Obviously, the island being blown up and not existing in present day had big ramifications later on for the whole crew (i.e. Sawyer being a cop with Miles and Jack having a kid).
i just want to tell everyone who is confused by the whole flash sideways thing, the flash sideways are not showing you what happened if the plane didnt crash, what they are showing us is, if the island was underwater and didnt exist and jacob never had influence on any of their lives, this is what their lives would have been, but because jacob influenced them and pushed them toward the island their lives are the way they are now (on island).
i believe the island is underwater because they detonated the hydrogen bomb in 1977 and blew a hole in the island and it sank. when the bomb blew it created this alternate timeline, where the islad is underwater and therefore their lives will not be affected by jacob.
Who is actually bringing people to the island? It seems as though both the MIB and Jacob are bringing people to the island. Clearly Jacob didn't intend on bringing the Black Rock to the island because he didn't know who Richard was. Also, the "Black Rock" is likely a play off of the "white rock" that Jacob has Richard give to the MIB. The MIB must have had great plans for Richard to be his "Black Rock", that's why he tells Richard that he'll leave his offer open indefinitely.
So we know that the MIB brings people to the Island because he must have a person display their self-serviving human nature and kill Jacob in order for the MIB to get off of the Island. But something other than Jacob's death must be necessary for MIB's escape becuase Jacob is now dead and MIB is still on the Island...so what else has to happen for him to get off of the island?
Why does Jacob bring people to the island? He says that it is too prove that people can act selflessly against their own fears/interests. OK...taking that at face value, why does Jacob needs "candidates" to replace him if his real goal vs MIB is to prove that people are inherently good. The battle over our true nature is never-ending and I think that Jacob is bringing candidates to the replace him so he can leave and let someone else fight the never-ending battle for a while.
In a way, both Jacob and MIB are trying to accomplish the same thing...trying to get off of the island. Jacob can escape the island by having a candidate tlake his place by displaying the good side of human nature by sacrificing himself/herself. Whereas MIB can only esacpe by having someone(s) display the dark selfish side of human nature by killing Jacob in order to get something back for themselves as promised by MIB.
Jacob is actually being selfish by continually bringing people to the island. If the MIB can only escape by corrupting people brought to the island and Jacob keeps bringing peolpe to the island then his is acting in his own self-interest in finding a replacement for himself. Jacob's "Others" followers were responsible for the mass killing of Dharma...so it's hard to consider Jacob a good guy in my opinion. I think both Jacob and MIB are trying to escape the island and each can only do so in a certain way.
I still believe that there is a scientific explanation for all that is happening. A lot of quantum physics stuff going on, parallel universes, dimensions and don't forget time travel. To me, the "black smoke" appears more like tiny metal particles being controlled with the use of some sort of magnetic power. Hence the crackling energy. If I remember correctly, Ben used some sort of device to call it. And often times, as the "monster" attacks, the point of view from it appears like looking through a camera lens. And if it is the devil, then why is it easily kept out of areas by sound waves or sulfur? The whole heaven and hell thing is a smoke screen, although, don't we each have the choice of creating our own heaven and hell?
All I can say is that this better not be some kind of huge dream sequence like some other shows have followed. I will be hugely dissapointed.
The man in Black asked Jacob to let him off the island, so that means that Jacob is in Charge. I found the bottle wine analagy interesting and it worthy of something from the new testament. This seems to be drawing some heavy parallels to heaven, hell, purgatory which is very catholic laden concepts.
Once again,this is always the eternal question about the battle between good and evil. The black man seems to be more of a taker of life while Jacob is allowed to leave the island as a sentinal.
I await the end!
who knew Nestor Carbonelle was such a fabulous actor?? Marvelous job– too bad he has played mostly a robotic part for the entire series.
He's a passionate and beautiful actor. I look forward to seeing him play these lusty parts in the future!
I am reminded of the Twilight Episode where the world was calm for many years after some religious priests were able to "contain the devil" in a cell using nothing more than a twig. The devil convinces a passing traveller to let him out, and shortly after the world enters more wars.
"Its important to remember that each person has had the island "explained" in absolutely minimal terms to them in context of their own personal life. Richard is a man from 19th century Spain, and the island was explained to him in terms a man from 19th century Spain would understand."
To the question about how to Black Rock was in the middle of the island:
It is likely that a wave or risen water brought the ship to the middle of the island. that eqyptian statue is nearly 400 feet tall and the ship bounced off of its forehead. This is more probable that Smokey "throwing" the ship.
the followers of MiB aren't all necessarily bad. Kate and sawyer havent sided with him either way, so that doesnt necessarily mean Sayid has either.
Chances are, Flocke will end up as the new MiB, and Jack will be the new MiW, if that is even the ending. Something tells me that somehow Widmore might destroy the island somehow and the flash sideways will become the real world. with their alternate stories already intertwined, this could be logical. everyone know someone for a reason.
"If everyone who has ever come to the island has died....what about Walt?? what about Widmore? There are so many little things that fall by the wayside. When this entire series is over, I plan on watching it from the beginning on DVD and I'm going to take notes."
Again, Jacob said that in 1867, not in the present day. So you can't apply that as fact as what has happened since 1867.
ok bottom line is that its waaaayyyyyy simple – what you believe, you become. free will. life is choice.
My 5 cents (you know... inflation):
The Island is not purgatory. It is their prison, but only one accepts his punishment. They are both fallen angels with incredible power. The kind of power that can move/hide islands, bring people to them, turn them into smoke monsters, etc.
Bartleby wants to leave and reek havok. This would be sending the world to hell. Loki realizes that he must stop him, but also knew that one day Bartleby would find away around the "no killing each other" rule. This is why he began looking for a replacement, to stop Bartleby from ever reaching the world.
Ta-Da!!! The mystery of Lost solved with 9 episodes to go! You're welcome :)
Some people are speculating that Jacob could really be the evil guy. This theory is untrue because Jacob has already proven he can leave the island at anytime. He has personally visited the passengers of the Oceanic flight before they even crashed. It's the Man In Black who is truly trapped on the Island.
Richard Alpert played by nestor carbonell was born in New York City and is of Cuban and Catalan (Spaniard) descent. His family moved to Caracas, Venezuela, where he attended the British School Caracas. Later on, he moved back to the United States, where he attended Deerfield Academy and went on to Harvard University in the late 1980s. His father is a business executive, and is active in the Cuban community. Carbonell is a cousin of former professional baseball player Rafael Palmeiro.
I hate lost but I can't help myself watching it but from the start of the series I thought those people were in purgatory. It makes since. I can't wait when the series is over. I need closer!!!!
Jacob could not offer Richard his wife back because it is not in his power and not because he is less powerful than Man in Black. Each demigod (for lack of a better word) is able to control and manipulate certain aspects of existence: Jacob has power over the living (As seen in granting Richard eternal life) while Black has power of the dead (as seen with his ability to take the form of the dead – Locke, Richard's Wife, Jack's father) The man in black very well could reunite Richard with his wife – but perhaps only disguising himself as her.
The Quon baby is a GIRL! Get your facts straight before you post.
Never a dull moment, this is great writing. The story could be a reflection on the philosophical question of free will versus determinism. Jacob represents free will in that the individual chooses his destiny, he (the individual) is never a victim of some outside force (god/s,gov., etc) but his inner drives or guided passions to rise evermore toward reachable universal knowledge through compassion, courage, wisdom, etc., in effect becoming the Perfect Being (like Jacob), while the black smoke represents the base passions of man to unshackle himself from apparent (self-caused) cause and effects (determinism-means to end) by destroying free will in the individual (conditioned choices). Note that time travel or parallel time line in the story has the effect of representing these choices that reflect or refract the virtues of compassion, courage, wisdom, etc.
More could be said, but that is the general idea in representation.
Producers said it wasn't purgatory back during season one. Looks like they are liars.
I'm going more with the idea of Jacob and MiB being more like angels. The questions about what, which, who is good or evil is perfect for today's world. It ain't a simple answer, but I'm hoping the show will demonstrate that there can be a certain one.
To add, if the 6 left are candidates, then why did Rose get spared from Cancer? What was the significance of that? Locke was able to walk, Claire gave birth on the island, and they are candidates. Hurley can see and talk to the dead, and Myles can talk to the dead, but only their last thoughts. Why would Jacob bring all these people to the island? The Smoke could easily convince one of them to kill Jacob, so why would he run the risk of that? To find candidates? He wouldn't need a candidate if he brought no one to the island!!!!!
AWESOME AWESOME acting by the Richard character! I was riveted from beginning to end...more so than any other episode (in all the years). So what do we think is happening with Hurley? Is he some sort of Angel that serves as a portal between those on the island and those in the hereafter?
"I think this recap is putting too much stock in the "hell" aspects of last night's ep. "Hell" was just MiB's means of manipulating Richard, since he was afraid of going to hell."
This is the credited response.
In terms of entertainment, this episode was an entertaining & exciting as those of the first season (remember all of those episodes that got us all hooked in the first place!?). It was great to see the story of Richard. I don't really have a theory of how the show will end (I am completely happy being surprised), but I do hope it is concluded somehow & we are not left with a million questions.
Unfortunately, the amount of commercials is really starting to get to me!
Who, in the name of all that is holy, gives a flying fart???????
wow so many of you are reaching way too far! trying too hard here!
I think the show is fine and some of you are not very intelligent viewers..
Having never seen even one episode of LOST, all I can say after reading this article is, "what are you smoking?".
Its important to remember that each person has had the island "explained" in absolutely minimal terms to them in context of their own personal life. Richard is a man from 19th century Spain, and the island was explained to him in terms a man from 19th century Spain would understand.
To say that the MIB is a satanic evil, or that the island is literally the cork containing the judeo-christian hell, is to be to literal. If it were really so literal, why would they bother to have the "smoke monster" produce static electricity discharges from the particles swirling around in it. Why would the island have had a electro-magnetic-gravitic anomaly?
The time and space teleportation, the ancient Egyptian architecture and hieroglyphics, etc... I think this is more likely a prison of some sort , designed in the future after time travel was understood. Moved into the past, it became the inspiration for Atlantis and other myths, and men sought it out for its fantastic abilities. WIth time and space teleportation available, the power of controlling it would be immense. It has already caused circular and broken time lines, has it not?
Or perhaps its more like Stenaslov Lem's "Roadside Picnic".
Anyway, the betting is still open I think.
Very interesting. Loved it as also. I think the island isn’t hell but for some it certainly is. Not sure if either the smoke monster or Jacob is the devil, but Jacob seems to be the gate keeper in all of this. (Of course I was thinking that maybe like the Dharma Initiative, Smoky and Jacob are like the underground observation rooms, that each has its own job of body checking on the other. They seem to remind me of the Jack and Sawyer. Like it is Jack and Sawyer’s destiny to take their places.) Can’t wait til the end.
I had that same thought myself, but I'm pretty convinced he's evil because he goes around slapping women, does mass killings against innocents, and he lies every 3 seconds.
I think Jacob is amibiguously good in the way the Old Testament God, or good mythological God's are. He represents good but doesn't mind messing with the immortals.
Remember the movie "memento". I think it would be interesting to watch all of LOST backwards.
i don't know why CNN feels the need to write about Lost so much
but i will say last night was the first time i actually cared about a character since penny's dad told desmond he wasn't worth a glass of his booze
Mister Guyliner did a great job – good episode – don't know what took them so long
still the most grossly over-rated show on tv
I think you hit the nail on the head. If you noticed, the electic play in the 'smoke monster' increased as Richard prayed. That plus he had on the cross. Only after the pig went in did I notice the cross was gone. Somehow it came off when the pig went by Richard and he lost the nail he was using to dig out the wood from his chain anchor.
I've been racking my brain trying to reconcile this story of Lost vs. all the mythos that I know of. The only one I can think of is the Bible. The island is the Garden of Eden, MIB is the devil, Jacob is a Cherubim, don't know where the flaming sword is unless it is the lighthouse.
I first started watching Lost this season. I bought a DVD player that has Netflix included and power watched seasons 1-5 without commercials. Even with all the episodes still fresh in my mind I am still lost but entertained. Thanks
No.....it is the gateway to insanity.
Is 'Lost' the gateway to Hell ?
Only if you watch it.
I was hoping that Richard was much older, like, ancient Egyptian. 1867 doesn't seem all that impressive...
Go back to the very beginning of the season opener. WTF was the island doing under water? That is one of the big 'answers' I'm looking for. I have no idea where this is going, but I'll be on board for the ride. Luv this show!!
If everyone who has ever come to the island has died....what about Walt?? what about Widmore? There are so many little things that fall by the wayside. When this entire series is over, I plan on watching it from the beginning on DVD and I'm going to take notes.
Really...the comic book polar bear? What was that all about? The research going on at Darhma about conceptions failing on the island. Then there's the little blond boy that showed up. Obviously a young Jacob. I dunno- so confused-so many ideas........
Why the message of the rock? Richard was instructed by Jacob to give it to the MIB. It was a result of Richard agreeing to be Jacob's representative ... you know, like St. Peter ... the rock.
Jacob can come and go (from the island). The MIB can't.
And Jacob with all his "powers" (bringing people to the island by shipwreck, plan crash, etc.) could be killed by being stabbed by Ben? I don't think so.
Widmore? The MIB's black rock?
really? best episode, yet? are we all talking about the same episode? i felt like it was just a bunch of fluff. they could have addressed richard's story in a 10-15 minute flashback. oy! what a waste of an episode!
Richard's story was the most captivating since Desmond's story. No other characters have as much intrigue as these two. I can only hope these next 7 episodes explain the many cliffhangers we've been left with since day 1. There won't be another season because many of the actors have signed contracts for other shows and films. Perhaps a movie one day, but the Sopranos spawned a similar theory which never materialized.
Maybe they think it is Purgatory and the producers want us to think it's Purgatory and will give us that idea until the very last minutes of the last episode. How can it get more original? That all of the sudden they're on a different planet and they find out they're aliens? I think the idea has already been presented, so it can't get any more original than Purgatory concept.
My guess is that they think they're in Purgatory, but at the end maybe they were part of a conspiracy or they were just dreaming and are rescued at the end. Perhaps, they never get rescued and just die. There's not much they can do with the story. They've already presented it in a way that makes us think they're in the afterlife or lost in an island. Maybe none of it ever happened and it was just their own conscience turning on them for their past mistakes.
I'm just saying, don't expect something too over the top. The end will most likely be obvious, but they will present it in a really good way. Lost is an awesome show!
What happened with Walt or will the producers hope that everyone forgot about him?
'Smokie' IMPERSONATES dead people that EVERYONE can see.
Hurley SEES dead people that noone else can see.
I had the same question, but it makes sense if you realize that because the island was "destroyed" in the sideways universe in the 1970's, and therefore creating a whole new chain of events, it is therefore possible that Sawyer and Miles connected in that world.
Unlike a lot of people on this thread, I like where the Lost writers are going with the show. But if you stand back and objectify it just slightly, you realize how insanely SELFISH everyone on that island is, save maybe Hurley. The majority of the character's motivation stem from a sense of survival over quality of character. Their actions are consistent with this. Even though they have time and time again confronted unexplained revelatory miracles, they continue to default their actions and decisions to a base and selfish criteria. However, this was not always the case.
Jack was a leader, a man of science, who wanted to help everyone survive.
Locke believed in destiny and was hypnotized by the mysticism of the island.
But now the characters have changed. And the evolution of the change is far from organic. The nature of who they are when they were first introduced has become inconsistent and the once relative attributes of their character are now untenable. In other words, this amazing supernatural world the writers introduced us to was exciting and what the genius anchor into reality and what made the show so relevant was the authenticity of each character. The issues they were dealing with in the real world were relevant and consistent with the decisions and actions in the surreal world. And incidentally, made everything that happened to them on the island that more enjoyable.
Not anymore. Everyone is completely compromised, selfish, and uninteresting.
Richard Alpert is placed by Nestor Carbonell who was born in New York City and is of Cuban and Catalan (Spaniard) descent. His family moved to Caracas, Venezuela, where he attended the British School Caracas. Later on, he moved back to the United States, where he attended Deerfield Academy and went on to Harvard University in the late 1980s. His father is a business executive, and is active in the Cuban community. Carbonell is a cousin of former professional baseball player Rafael Palmeiro.
To the guy that said that they all have been abandoned by there fathers like jesus did on the cross! jesus was not abandoned by his father! And theirs no kids, because theirs no kids in Hell!
"Hope you guys can get it together, because the fans are waning"
As is clear on this page along, some fans' interest may be waning. Others' interest are not.
Simply put the steam is running out of the show, last night was 60 plus minutes of what should have taken no more than 15. The show needs to give us a continuing roadmap to the final answer(s), what it has done for years seems to be missing. I am hopeful for the future, but concerned that the last frame with ordinary answers and solutions will be lame!
If what Jacob said about the island is true, then this has serious implications for the flash sideways universe. Where is Richard, Jacob, and the MIB?
I am speechless! This is by far THE BEST episode of the season and of all! There are still a lot of unanswered questions, but the story is starting to open up more with Jacob's explanation on the island's purpose and what makes Richard ageless. I feel very sorry about Richard and what he gone through. And this episode, again, shows dead man spirits do revel on this island....dead people like Christian, Mr. Eko's brother, some people from the DARMA, Isabella, etc. What is that mean?
On entertainment value alone, this was, in my humble opinion, the best episode of Lost thus far. Nestor Carbonell was FANTASTIC. As far as what it all means, who cares. Great show.
When producers and writers have to explain and add captions then who is lost? No pun intended. Either the writers are genius or they found themselves in a corner and are trying thier best to recover this last season and save a series. Most Lost fans I know are disgusted with the so called explanations and wish to not even discuss the show, characters, actors or sponsers. Now I feel lost.
With the shooting schedule of most tv shows, they probably have only one or two more episodes left to film. I wonder if they can finish the series without sub-titles?
I feel like I am in Congress with the confusion about good vs. evil. I hope the writers and producers pull it together for their own sake. Jobs are hard to find everywhere, so how willing do you think Losties will be to watch another show wrtitten, produced or sponsered by unfulfilled episodes of something that was so good and now is so lost. Pun intended.
Hope you guys can get it together, because the fans are waning.
Lost in Lost
Wow you mean people are still watching this show. I bet they still watch AI too.
Best episode yet. I've been waiting to learn about Richards story for years now. Finally. I can't wait to see how it ends.
the problem with seeing Richard Albert as Jesus – Jesus was never a victim or in chains. Jesus chose;Richard reacted out of emotion and fear.
Why the Hell is this on a news website? It's an evening soap opera.
everyone's ideas and thoughts and suggestions and possibilities are so good! in many ways, its the viewers who have written this show, through weekly speculation. Let's all write a new one after the finale!
aside to Peggy -r u kidding,comparing Jack to anyone? Jack is a brooding, self-indulgent complainer. If you want to make biblical comparisons – he'd be like the rich man who wants to get into heaven but not willing to give up his title.
Did anyone else catch the Man In Black say that Jacob took the Man in Black's body??? Interesting! Excellent episode! It appears that Jacob is God, the Man in Black is the devil and Richard is either Jesus or an apostle (to spread Jacob's word).
"Did anyone notice the name of the ship officer that took Richard from prison- Widworth or Widford? Probably an ancestor of Widmore which is why he collects Black Rock artifacts. This was by far the best episode of the season!"
The captain's name was Whitfield.
"Between Magnus and the smoke monster, everyone but Richard dies"
That was Whitfield who killed the prisoners, not Hanso.
If it is Hell, or Hell's waiting room, what did Hurley do to wind up there? I can see what everyone else did to deserve it, but not Hurley.
"Somehow their children will become the new pair of Jacob and the Man in Black. Aaron will become the New MIB (because he now has a crazy mother like the smokey) and Sun's Child will become the new Jacob."
Very unlikely. In order for that to happen, the show would have to jump 20 year or so in the future and set up those two taking the role. Jacob's dead now and the Man in Black is trying to leave the island now. They need a candidate now to stop him.
In follow-up, wiki "The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness", chronicles the war essentially of the devil and god noted in the dead sea scrolls. Perhaps Ilana is St. Michael...
GOOD CATCH, Howie! Could also be Aaron –
although Quon baby more likely, since he was also conceived on the island.
however, neither is currently on the island.
When is Ana Lucia coming back? She was awesome – only Michele Rodriquez could play her.
The only altruistic character is Sawyer/James. He's constantly got everyone's back, but he always declines attention over it. It will be Sawyer/James who destroys the smoke monster.
"Probably already has been mentioned – but I wonder why Jacob can eat and drink while the MIB in his ncarnations (as Flocke and the MIB) cannot."
Maybe simply because Jacob and the Man in Black are not the same types of beings.
"if these are "flash sideways" then technically, Sawyer knew Miles before the flight that led him to the island (remember, Miles was mad about Sawyer lying to him about where he was going). So why didn't he know Miles when he finally ran into him on the island? Oh, Lost. Get it together will ya."
No, the Sawyer in the timeline where the island sunk knew Miles before the flight because they were partners in the LAPD. So for some reason, one of the effects of the island sinking was that both of these men became cops and met each other.
But in the original timeline, they didn't become cops and never met each other.
The "flashes" are "flash sideways" to alternate timelines where things may be the same or they may be different.
I have to agree with some of the other posters. The writers cannot decide what direction the show should follow. The first two seasons were spent presenting the island as this mysterious, supernatural place – the miraculous healing of Locke and Rose, the "smoke monster", dead people appearing, etc. Then the next few seasons presented a much more scientific angle, such as electromagnetism and time travel. Ever since last season's finale, it's obvious that the writers have decided to go back to the supernatural angle. Good/evil, Locke magically undoing Ben's restraints, talking to the dead, and so forth.
If the show does end with Jack and Locke sitting on the beach, mirroring last season's finale opener, it will just prove that the writers have no creativity whatsoever.
pow-wow is totally right – totally divine comedy, but in general just a TON of religious symbolism that is so interesting.
Perhaps the MIB is the devil and St. Michael (the archangel) is Jacob (he is responsible for keeping the devil in hell)...the devil was an angel at one point who envied God's power. This would explain why the MIB at one point said "at one time I was a man"...would also explain why Jacob couldn't grant Richard forgiveness.
Whoever said this show is for "liberals" is an idiot...it's all about religious theory and history. And for gods sakes it's TV – so maybe you should go back to watching IDOL and "I'm smarter than a 5th grader".
Brian wrote: "The only thing I could think about when watching this episode was the episode that played before it that included little messages at the bottom explaining things about the show. I wonder...if these are "flash sideways" then technically, Sawyer knew Miles before the flight that led him to the island (remember, Miles was mad about Sawyer lying to him about where he was going). So why didn't he know Miles when he finally ran into him on the island? Oh, Lost. Get it together will ya."
My guess would be, Sawyer and Miles didn't meet in the "real" timeline because both lead different lives in the "alternate" timeline. Just like how Jack has a kid in one timeline but not the other – their life experiences are different (though they all appear destined to be in each others lives somehow).
@Mauro: The island moves. That's why the Lamppost station was built (the room with the pendulum swinging over a map of the world). The Lamppost station was built to show where the island is (or will be). So it's quite possible the island was in the Atlantic when the Black Rock encountered it.
Also how come richard does not have an accent now and why does he go by richard instead of ricardo? I mean really?
clifton, you actually could read black rock on the back of the ship when it was in the ocean, and later on when it had crashed in the jungle.
I thought the performance by Nestor Carbonell as Richard was phenomenal in this episode! This episode kept me on the edge of my seat...
"And what set Richard apart from the rest who were killed by the smoke monster?"
Could it be because he was praying as the smoke monster faced him?
"This reminded me of something else that I forgot to mention. How could Jacob and MIB have seen the ship in calm sunny weather, but in the flashback it was a raging storm? And how did a wooden ship destroy a stone statue?"
Is it certain the ship they were watching while on the beach was the Black Rock? Could it have been another earlier ship?
The Black Rock was traveling from the Canaries island ( Atlantic Ocean) with Richard on board in 1867, to the new world....How did it end up in the Pacific? Isn't the "Lost" Island supposed to be in the Pacific?
Don't forget the island can be moved.
very good episode.
I still have a few theories,
1 the real Locke isnt done yet. I find it hard to believe that they would end his character that way will all the build up. I still think he has one card to play.
2. I dont think Sayid is crazy, He killed Dogen & the other guy in the "Healing " Pool that Jacob was hanging out at.
I'm just starting to believe Jacob is the devil .
i think it was the best episode to date... we kinda thought Richard receive his gift from Jacob, but didn't kow how and why. I loved this episode so much because of the symbolism of Christ. did anybody see the tree at the end? my first thought was the tree of good and evil.
Jacob said that he gives people free will and choice when they become candiates of the island. MIB just wants off so he can spread his evil to everyone.
I don't think they are all dead, because why would Jacob have the Six as candiates and bring them to a dying island.
And to all of the haters: don't watch the show, if you don't like the show. how stupid is that?!!!
Lost is the best show on TV, I'm really going to miss it!!!
Hurley is really stepping up to be the new Jacob (or the new Richard)- he's been intervening on behalf of Jacob for a while now. He's really the only candidate who is proving his worth to the island. The rest of them are just focused on leaving.
I think Jack will become the new Jacob - and Sawyer will become the new "man in black" - balance has to be maintained in the universe - evil and good cannot exist without each other.
Did anyone notice the name of the ship officer that took Richard from prison- Widworth or Widford? Probably an ancestor of Widmore which is why he collects Black Rock artifacts. This was by far the best episode of the season!
My 2 cents...
Island = Purgatory
MIB = Devil
Jacob = Grim Reaper
I actually wouldn't be disappointed in the purgatory scenario as I thought it was a brilliant premise from the start and will be glad to see the resolution. Hey, it's been a mystery regardless, so why gripe about it?
I'm still going off my theory that Jacob is actually bad and Locke/Smokey is good. I commented on that theory 2 weeks ago with Ben Linus and I feel like this episode is making the case for it...
Although, if Jacob is the Devil, as the Man in Black states, then how is Smokey not off the island because the Devil is dead?
Two questions that need to be answered ASAP or there will never be a good enough answer for it... What the hell happened to Michael and Walt? I thought Walt was all powerful! (Besides the fact that Walt has hit puberty and is probably 6'1" now doesn't mean they can't bring him back! We didn't forget how important he was in season 1 and 2!)
And the other, why isn't Aaron one of the six candidates when he was part of the Oceanic 6? And why is Aaron so important? And was that little boy that Locke/Smokey yelled at a few weeks ago supposed to be an older Aaron?
Speaking of Aaron (and Claire), does anyone else find it interesting that the Man in Black in this episode told Ricardo that the Devil/Jacob had his wife, and that last week we found out that the Man in Black told Claire that the temple had Aaron?
Well, I remember at the begining of this season the island was under water, which tells me its purpose is no more, how that will come to be is what this season is about. All people sin it is in their nature, whether they want to be redeemed is another. I think jacob and the Man in black are both evil, however jacob is the lesser of the two evils. God does not take away freewill just as jacob does not intervene and tell people what to do or think just like the Man in black (devil) does try to persuade with empty promises to do bad.
Enough Already get a life or maybe actually watch the episodes before commenting. Seriously from reading this forum I can tell that a lot of people who watch the show cannot properly comprehend it but you take the cake. If you actually processed the show properly you would figure out that tthis is a structured story that in outline was finished before the first episode i.e. Ep1 S1 aired 5 years ago. The only major change they ever made to this was that they killed of Mr Eko because the actor didn't like living in Hawaii.
The Producers have so fervently denied the Purgatory explanation that it would really be a disappoint and major blow to their credibility if it comes ever close to this.
"When does the man in black morph from Locke to Sawyer?"
Am I right that they established at some point that he can only appear as dead people? (Maybe I'm confusing it with the First Evil on Buffy - maybe it is the First Evil ;) ). He's appeared as Locke, Jack's Father, Richard's wife, maybe others.
If so, Sawyer would have to die.
The 'underwater' view of the island must be it's actual relationship to the Real World.
This would explain why you need a submarine to go there – it's not on the surface from the standpoint of the Real World but rather submerged.
That's how the Black Rock appeared to arrive in fair weather – yet crashes on the island (through the statue) in foul weather – it actually SANK (that's why it's so far inland).
This would also explain the paradox of flight Oceanic Flight 815 being 'on the bottom of the ocean' and 'on the island' at the same time.
The ship in Season 5 could be the Black Rock as we have seen that the island is difficult to escape from. When the Losties tried to leave on the raft, it kept them near the island. When Desmond tried to get away, it kept bringing him back to the island. The electromagnetism gives false compass bearings, etc. We could have seen the Black Rock float past the island, only to be brought back to crash during the storm.
It could have been another ship all together as Jacob explained to Richard that he had brought others to the island before, but they are all dead now.
either way, not so difficult to believe...
EnoughAlready: Dude, get a clue...when Jacob said that to Richard, it was the 1800's...the DHARMA folks and the Others werent around yet...whoever Jacob had previously brought to the island was dead...quit your complaining and just enjoy the show or dont watch...whiner.
The only thing I could think about when watching this episode was the episode that played before it that included little messages at the bottom explaining things about the show. I wonder...if these are "flash sideways" then technically, Sawyer knew Miles before the flight that led him to the island (remember, Miles was mad about Sawyer lying to him about where he was going). So why didn't he know Miles when he finally ran into him on the island? Oh, Lost. Get it together will ya.
Completely agree with John above. I've wondered since they first introduced Jacob and MIB if the twist wouldn't be that Jacob is actually the bad guy.
Also, we don't *really* know if Richard's wife told him to not let MIB leave the island or if it was Jacob/Ilana having Hurley manipulate him. Only after she "disappeared" to us did Hurley mention it as an "oh yeah..." El diablo is the reason Richard is immortal, for fear of eternal Hell. Seems to me this would be way at the top of the list to talk about when you finally have the chance to talk to the greatest love of your life. Not an afterthought like it was.
Also completely agree with Steve above, too. I thought "Richard" did an AMAZING job!! We've never been able to see him with raw emotion until this episode. Very impressed!!
"The Black Rock was traveling from the Canaries island ( Atlantic Ocean) with Richard on board in 1867, to the new world....How did it end up in the Pacific? Isn't the "Lost" Island supposed to be in the Pacific?"
Interesting thought – though once i think about it, the island "moves" so it must be able to move from ocean to ocean?
I thought about the sunny day/terrible storm conflict for the Black Rock as well. It could just mean that the storm actually hit the second after Jacob and MiB spoke on the beach. We know the island has had freak weather conditions before, so it's not impossible.
As for how the Black Rock got to the middle of the island – If you were a smoke-monster who is ticked at the guy next to you for bringing more people to the island, wouldn't you want to stop the game right there and then? I imagine Smokey took that ship and flung it into the middle of the island so he could kill off the crew before Jacob could even get a chance to set up his game-pieces.
Smokey stopped his attack on Richard in the ship the second Richard began praying – is it a true warding off of evil through prayer? Or did Smokey say, "Hey, here's a sucker who I can convince this is Hell and Jacob is the Devil so he'll kill Jacob for me?"
While slavery was abolished, it doesn't mean that it was gone for good by 1867, nor that Richard was heading toward the US itself. Even at best and working as a sharecropper would be much like slavery in a way at the time. So it seems odd, but is still workable within the storyline.
More questions: Why did the priest take Richard's bible away from him in prison? What was the passage in the bible that we saw quickly there and does it relate to our story (the series has always beeen very good about linking books characters are seen reading with storylines)? Is the image of Isabella that Hurley saw "real" or something created by Jacob so that Richard will do his bidding (if Smokey can appear in other forms, why not Jacob – especially if Jacob is dead anyway)? Did Jacob see Ilana before or after Locke was killed (if before, and with Jacob referring to the "six candidates," then Locke was never considered to be one ... or that Hurley was not considered one and Jacob made him one after Locke was dead, as Jacob didn't mean Hurley until right before the second plane trip)?
Still, in all, very solid and I do feel they know where they're going with all this. Looking forward to the remaining episodes!
For a long time I watched LOST with great interest but I agree with several other viewers that the story line has slipped and there are continuity problems, mostly with the writers. LOST has gone the way of many poorly made mysteries where you cannot figure out 'who dunnit' because the rules/facts keep changing. LOST started to lose credubility for me when they started getting off track. Maybe, as some have said, the writers are just trying to tie up some loose ends before the show ends in the number of requisite episodes. It seems that the writers have lost track of what they have written in the past and the quality of the show is suffering because of it. I hope that the next couple of episodes will get back on track although the damage may have already been done. Lost is going the way of DALLAS where one long running scenario ends with Bobby finding out it was all a big dream, a pretty poor excuse for a program.
Anyone catch the Canary Islands and Richard's origins? The islands are far from the Pacific (south of Spain) so Jacob really threw the Black Rock off course. Plato thought Atlantis sank near the Canary Islands. Who doesn't love this stuff!?
Philip K. I also noticed that Jacob lives under the heal of the statue. Could Jacob and MIB be brothers? Biblical Jacob tricked Esau out of his inheritence. He then went on to stuggle with God and become wounded (sim. to Locke) In the end God gave Jacob a new name, Isarel, which means fights with God.
Jack Shepard is a lot like David in the Bible. Biblical David was not afriad of anyone, even giants. He wrote Psalm 23 and Jack's number on the wall of names was 23. Many of the Psalms are actually songs that people sang that David wrote. And Jack named his son David and he wrote music.David became one of the great kings of the old testament, even to the point that Jesus comes from the line of David.
I also think think Matt has a good line with the Manichaeism angle.
First off, I thought this episode was terrific. Finally got more answers than questions.
Now on to the meat of the matter:
Island vs Purgatory – Everyone is pissed because we were told earlier that the island was not purgatory. Science and Physics has played a main part in the storylines of several of the Losties. Now we are told that the island is nothing but a cork to keep evil/hell from getting loose. Take a look at the source of that information. RICHARD. We see from his backstory that he is a religious man. What better way to coerce someone into your service than to play on his fears. MiB offered him his wife because he was affraid of life without her. Jacob offered him life ever lasting because he was affraid of burning in hell. Other Losties have been approached by both Jacob and MIB and they too have been made offers based on their fears. The islande may not be the "religious" token people think.
Jacob/MiB vs Good/Evil – I don't believe either of these two characters can be seen as good. MiB/Smokey has killed several people. Jacob continues to bring people to the island. When asked by Richard, back in 1867, what happened to everyone that came before Jacob said that every was dead. How could anyone who continues to bring people to their place of death be considered good.
Island vs Location – People have asked how could they take of from the Canary Islands in the Atlantic and land on the island in the Pacific. If memory serves me right, which it rarely does, Danielle Faraday's mother reveals a map of the world below a pendulum. The swinging pendulum marks the map in the location of island at certain times. There were several locations, including 1 or 2, marked in the Atlantic to a potential island location. Stop thinking of the island as a land mass and more of an unanchored destination.
These are just some thoughts from the mind of another potentially clueless fan.
Probably already has been mentioned - but I wonder why Jacob can eat and drink while the MIB in his ncarnations (as Flocke and the MIB) cannot.
@ RHBD – good catch, I caught that also. However, we don't know that the Black Rock was heading to the US, it could have been headed towards Brazil, where slavery wasn't officially ended until 1888. Still, the whole sequence did seem out of place for the year.
Addendum to my last post:
I think I am onto something here:
Illana said at one point that she was to protect Jin or Sun Quon. She only had the name "Quon" and had to protect both because she did not know which one.Well There is a third Quon, their baby that is off the island.
Locke (as smokey) said to Kate that his mother was crazy and now Aaron has a crazy mother too.
The baby thing with all of them dying on the island except for Clair and Sun's babies....
The name "Quon" is on the wall as a candidate but Clair's is not.
Somehow their children will become the new pair of Jacob and the Man in Black. Aaron will become the New MIB (because he now has a crazy mother like the smokey) and Sun's Child will become the new Jacob.
Somehow Kate and Sawyer will get off the island and bring back Aaron to Clair. I am not sure how Sun will get her son back to the island.
It is amazing how much time I waste being obsessed over this show!
Did this episode resonate "Book of Job" with anyone else? I read it for a Satanic Literature class a long while ago, and this episode pretty much laid out the foundation of the story. Jacob being god, MiB being the devil, making a bet over whether or not humans' naturally gravitate towards sin in the face of adversity or if faith is what truly drives humanity. Just me?
"- The year 1867 seems off to me. I'm no expert, but the style of clothing worn, the type of the ship, the references to "The New World" (which is what America was called before it was America), bringing slaves to the "New World" after slavery had been abolished... all this seems to me that the year should've been 1767 or even 1667. Was this a goof?"
The New World was the name for both North and South America, not just the United States. People could still have slaves in South or Central America.
Nestor Carbonell (Richard) is of Cuban heritage.
I am wondering if the miscarriages were due to Smokey trying to take over the fetuses and create a loophole that way. Clearly he just needed a trusted body on the island.
Though, how did Amy Goodspeed manage to carry Ethan to full term on the island?
lots of comments here about good vs. evil and man in black vs. man in white – and which one of them is "really" good and "really" evil. I think it has been clear for a long time now, that one of the points here is that nothing is ever as "black and white" as we tend to believe, and battles between "good and evil" often involve "good" people doing very evil things, and "evil" people performing astonishing acts of heroism and generosity. Nearly all of the major characters have performed acts of good and evil (with varying motivations behind them). Sayid, Sawyer, Jack, Ben, John, Sun, Jin, Kate – all have crossed the line – often going back and forth and back and forth. Why should that be any different for the men in black in white?
i was mesmerized by this episode. I always thought the island was purgatory as well but, how do you explain the "Oceanic 6" being rescued? if one is in purgatory that means one is in a waiting room between heaven & hell.
"One strange twist is when Jacob was able to be killed after talking to Ben while the MIB in Locke's body was not killed when he was stabbed after talking to Sayid. Any theories on this ???"
The Man in Black can't be killed, like Jacob can. And they already explained that Dogan told Sayid to kill the Man in Black in the hopes that the Man in Black would kill Sayid. The attempt was never meant to succeed.
"Does anyone remember the movie "Ghost" and the black smoke the came and took the bad people away? Is this what the black smoke is here??"
Ghost didn't have black smoke. It had shadows that would come to life and pull people away.
"Jacob tells Richard that everyone who has ever come to the island has died. What about the DHARMA folks, or the "Others" – we still have no real clue about either group, their role, how they got to the island in the first place. "
Um, Jacob told him that in 1867, and it was clear that before Richard, Jacob didn't try to persuade or interact with people on the island. Richard convinced him to do so, because the Man in Black certainly was trying to influence the people on the island.
Jacob made Richard his "liason" to do just that. Hence, following that the Others came about, etc.
Scott T – Perhaps the MIB/FLocke was not killed when Sayid stabbed him because he's not truly alive. The MIB said that Jacob took his body. Remember, FLocke/MIB was also shot in the temple when Ben killed Jacob but instead of dying he turned into the black smoke and killed Ilana's crew. So if he's just the smoke monster posing AS a body, it stands to reason that being stabbed or shot wouldn't affect him at all.
Also, the question of why Jacob can't reunite Richard with his wife is because his wife is dead. Sure he saw her on the island, but I feel like that was just Smokey manipulating Richard. Smokey "judged" Richard and left him alive in chains on the boat because he believed that Richard – a man who lost everything, killed a man (tho by accident) and truly feared hell – could be manipulated into killing Jacob. The other slaves and officers on the Black Rock probably had some of those qualities but not to the degree that Richard had them.
Clifton, they did show the name of the ship when they first flashed to it, and it was the Black Rock.
Also, last week, Richard went to the Black Rock and made a reference that the ship was how he came to the island.
To Daniel, the actors who play Hurley and Richard are both of Cuban descent.
"scott t": when they say MIB and Jacob can't be killed if they talk first they are referring to their ability to persuade people... this is not a literal statement.
"Snordax": If its too liberal for you then dont watch it, dont comment on it and stop wasting your and our time
I'm starting to get a Cain vs. Abel vibe with the crazy mother being Eve.
I think that everyone who is still slicing and dicing the plot has forgotten one part of the story: Illana said at one point that she was to protect Jin or Sun Quon. She only had the name "Quon" and had to protect both because she did not know which one. Well There is a third Quon, their baby that is off the island. With as many twists they build into the plot, do not be surprised if the Quon's baby makes a comeback as some type of "baby in the manger" parallel to take over as the protector.
Just my 2 cents...
RHBD, we never saw whether or not that ship was The Black Rock. All we could see was a ship. I can guarantee The Black Rock wasnt the only ship that came to the island: remember, Jacob said there had been others on the island before and how do you think they got there?
And a large wooden ship could easily destroy a stone statue if it hit it near the top and knocked it over.
Does anyone remember the movie "Ghost" and the black smoke the came and took the bad people away? Is this what the black smoke is here??
I have said all along there was two worlds working here, just who will win good or evil??
I, for one, was not really intrigued with last night's episode. After six seasons of questions about the mystery and nature of the island, we now discover that the island is simply a blockade to keep evil from spreading in the world? How completely lame is that? I have had faith that the writers would take us someplace where no other show had dared to tread, but now it seems they have completely copped out and simply turned this story into some religious mumbo-jumbo analogy.
In effect, they have essentially nullifed any significant point to the other storylines that have taken place thus far (time travel, electromagnetism, Dharma Inititative, etc) and now make it seem like all of those storylines were simply 'filler' until they got to the end. They previously had used science/physics as the main backdrop to the story, and at least gave the viewers some hope that the story might have some kind of tangible explanation in reality. But now, am I supposed to just believe this is simply all some war between obscure deities to keep evil contained? Like 'good' and 'evil' are even tangible concepts existing out of the context of humanity at all! I feel cheated, and I sure hope the writers redeem themselves before the end. If not, I feel I have completely wasted my time.
I was blown away. . . maybe not the best ep ever, but one of them. I love how the entire series is boiling down to these elemental choices. Every episode this season has concerned free will.
@Matt: excellent point about Manichaeism. Hadn't occured to me before – I think you're onto something. But part of me still believes this is all a giant riff on the Biblical story of Jacob and Esau, which would explain the Egyptian/Mesopotamian touches and even the giant foot. (Jacob was born latched on to Esau's foot.)
@Daniel – I got this from Wikipedia: "Carbonell was born in New York City and is of Cuban and Catalan (Spaniard) descent. His family moved to Caracas, Venezuela, where he attended the British School Caracas."
The writers have been all over the place for the entire series, it's painfully obvious they are making this up as they go along, without regard for continuity. Jacob tells Richard that everyone who has ever come to the island has died. What about the DHARMA folks, or the "Others" – we still have no real clue about either group, their role, how they got to the island in the first place. How does time-travel fit into all of this? Time travel is the worst plot device ever created; it's a lazy failsafe for non-creative writers.
"Richard's immortality was given to him after he mentioned his fear of dying and going to hell (which he was promised by the priest) almost in passing. Jacob couldn't promise him what the Man in Black did (the chance to reunite with his wife, etc.). Is that because the Man in Black is more powerful, or Jacob is just the one telling the truth? "
Or, more likely, the Man in Black was telling the truth, and meanto reunite Richard with his wife by killing Richard after he killed Jacob. That type of promise is practically a cliche in movies and tv shows.
Kristen wrote: "The first time we saw the MIB he was sitting with Jacob watching the Black Rock come in."
This reminded me of something else that I forgot to mention. How could Jacob and MIB have seen the ship in calm sunny weather, but in the flashback it was a raging storm? And how did a wooden ship destroy a stone statue?
One strange twist is when Jacob was able to be killed after talking to Ben while the MIB in Locke's body was not killed when he was stabbed after talking to Sayid. Any theories on this ???
"Lost" is a very liberal show. I would not watch it.
Incredible acting by Nestor Carbonell (Richard) and the best episode to date!! Great job LOST staff!! Kudos to LOST casting for landing Nestor! Everything is starting to make "reasonable/believable" sense. I have been a fan since day one and have watched every episode at least twice. I still want answers to the mysteries (How did the Black Rock end up in the middle of the jungle, who are Adam and Eve ((Zack and Emma perhaps…that would be cool)), the whispers, and about a thousand more) but this episode answered so many questions. It is starting to look like the LOST creators had a complete story when they started, as opposed to winging it as they went along. Can’t wait for next Tuesday!
A couple of thoughts:
– I thought I remembered the producers, years ago, saying the island was NOT hell or purgatory. I think that in this episode they weren't using those terms in a literal fashion, but I'll be mad if they ultimately do say that the island is purgatory.
– The year 1867 seems off to me. I'm no expert, but the style of clothing worn, the type of the ship, the references to "The New World" (which is what America was called before it was America), bringing slaves to the "New World" after slavery had been abolished... all this seems to me that the year should've been 1767 or even 1667. Was this a goof?
– Overall, a very good episode, with more questions answered than any episode in recent memory. Nicely done!
great episode! I agree with one of the comments here that this episode definitely made me question who is really "good" and who is "bad". I am wondering about whats up with Syiad, though.
And to the haters: just stop watching the show already if you dont like it. (instead of watching it, reading about it, and then commenting online)
The first time we saw the MIB he was sitting with Jacob watching the Black Rock come in. I don't recall the exact conversation but Jacob indicated that this was the opportunity to prove something to MIB. If MIB was right about the evilness of most of the people on the ship, then Jacob was right about Richard (I hope). I thought it was great that Dogen used the same words to Sayid that MIB used with RIchard. Same results (no death and conversion to the other side). The MIB cannot leave the island, unlike Jacob. He is trapped. Think Docotr Who and the Impossible Planet. His "body" is trapped but will his "mind" be able to flee with FLocke? Are we all doomed if it happens?
The black and white rocks...
Wait for a big reveal shot in one of the last episodes, maybe further insid the cave:
a mountain of either white or black rocks, as evidence of the epic, but in the end futile, battle that has been raging between good and evil, between Jacob and MIB for eons.
On an entirely different note, the continuity people on Lost has clearly taken a break... Just some examples:
The white rock changed shape during the episode , and the "ravaged" beach went from clean, to ravaged, to clean, to ravaged as Richard approaches the smashed statue.
I think that Jack will be the new Jacob and Locke, as we know, will be the new MiB and Sawyer is going to fit in some how in between them. After Richard was told not to let the MiB leave the island by his wfe the last shot was on Locke. Or maybe Sawyer is the Jacob.
I think the writers are borrowing a lot from Manichaeism, an ancient Gnostic religion that emphasized a struggle between good and evil but without an omnipotent, all powerful god. In Manichaeism there is a kingdom of light and a kingdom of darkness, the two come into contact and struggle with one another for people's souls. The island would seem to be that point of contact and the focal point of the struggle.
please read upon your dante and homer. then you will figure it out. please remember the first sceen of this year. then you will get it. jacob and the mib came to the island together. they had choices too.
What I found interesting is that so many of the main characters have 'father-abandonment' issues.
Jack's dad doesn't believe in him;
Claire's dad is Jack's dad;
Sawyer's dad killed his mom and then himself;
Sun's dad is a gangster;
Hurley's dad (although a pretty good guy now, it seems) abandoned Hurley when he was young;
Kate's dad (or is it her step-dad) abused her mom.
Locke's dad stole his kidney
I think it ties in to the Biblical story of Jesus being abandoned by his Father while on the cross. Jesus says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
My problem with the theory that they are all on the brink of Hell is that the Oceanic Six seemed to have returned to society when they were rescued. So is Hell a physical place that people can go to?
Another question I have is this? If both Ben Linus and Charles Widmore are on Jacob's team, why were they trying to kill eachother? And why do the rules about not killing eachother directly apply to Ben and Charles?
Easily ranks up there for me with "The Constant", "Walkabout" and "Deus Ex Machina"
I am a native Spanish speaker and I was surprised by the way the actor representing Ricardo (Richard) spoke. Does anyone know if he is actually of Caribbean descent (Cuba, Puerto Rico)? By the way... great episode!!!
This was the best episode of the season. Kept me engaged the whloe time and left m with still more questions.
Cassie, they took the children to protect them. They took Walt because he was....special. And he was a candidate.
The problem with a lot of "losties" is that they want answers but they dont want the answers they think they already know. Because when they get said answers they say "WE ALREADY KNEW THAT!!" Some of the answers you have been looking for are common sense, some of the have been given (but not handed to you) and some things just dont need answering because they are not necessary for the overall story arch. So far this has not been my favorite lost season, probably because they ARE trying to wrap things up and they ARE answering questions. I like the mysteries.....I like THINKING about the answers. Too bad everyone else seems to NEED the answers.
The Black Rock was traveling from the Canaries island ( Atlantic Ocean) with Richard on board in 1867, to the new world....How did it end up in the Pacific? Isn't the "Lost" Island supposed to be in the Pacific?
If you remember the movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akryod you'll remember the bit about the two old fellas betting that they could destroy one man and make another a success overnight.
Will this be the lost finale–Jacob and the MIB bringing people to the island and playing a game of Risk for a bet???
Remember, whats great about this show is that they are not freewilling it (the downfall of heroes) they had the whole story complete. So purgatory may be correct. My thoughts, Jacob is God. He tells Richard he wont absolve him of his sins. Would God do that, yes, because first Richard must forgive himself before God can. He needs a voice (Voice of God). Just a couple thoughts.
I think the author of this article got a few things wrong/confused.
1) Dont take Hurley's "ghost words" so literal. "We all go to hell" doesnt mean that the island is purgatory of the gateway to hell. It simply means if the Man In Black leaves the island, an island that has been hidden from the world for a reason, an island that he is trapped on by purpose, then that "evil" will corrupt the entire world.
2) The "not speaking" thing...once again, not so literal. What they mean is if either one of them talk to the person that's trying to kill them that person can be easily convinced to NOT kill them. Men are highly susceptible to persuasion.
I think this recap is putting too much stock in the "hell" aspects of last night's ep. "Hell" was just MiB's means of manipulating Richard, since he was afraid of going to hell.
The MiB himself is the "evil" being contained. We have seen him time and time again now doing everything in his power to corrupt and manipulate everyone on the island. I really don't think the concept is that if HE leaves, something under the island gets unleashed. I think its more that he IS what gets unleashed on the world.
I am guessing we will start to see MiB popping up in the flash sideways timeline. If we haven't already.
Question: Will Titus Welliver return as MiB, or will see him played by someone else when who he is is revealed? As he said last night, Jacob "took his body".
The last scene of LOST will be Jack and Locke sitting on the beach. They have been the freewill vs. destiny, good vs evil, science vs. faith argument since the series began...
Great episode! I really don't think they are dead. If they were dead why did Whitmore stage the whole airplane crash ?
And Jacob if he is good & can grant Richard his wish of living forever why couldn't he bring his dead wife back ? And the children why did they take Walt & why did they want Claire's baby ? I still have questions & I hope they get answered.
I am so over LOST! It's is a mess. You can tell they're just writing anything to wrap up this season.
LOST, like Desperate Housewives, needs to be put out of it's misery. Cancel the show already!
This episode didn't deliver anything that anybody with a shred of intelligence hadn't already figured out. We already knew that Richard came over on the Black Rock, no big relevation there. We already knew that Jacob is the one who gave Richard his "gift". And the whole Jacob/MIB power struggle theme – nothing new revealed there either. The show is going to end with far too many questions left unanswered.
I'm beginning to think neither Jacob or MIB is very good. Especially after the ferocity that Jacob used in almost drowning Richard to prove to him he was alive. So that being said here's my theory about how Lost will end: There will be one more time flash, either caused by one of our Losties moving the donkey wheel or by some other means. They will be transported back to a time when both Jacob is still alive and MIB is in his original state, and Dharma is present on the island. Then one or more of our Losties will do something that will destroy the island, killing themselves, Jacob and MIB and sinking the island to the bottom of the sea. Then, because the island, Jacob & MIB no longer exist, the flash sideways becomes the "real" reality.
I think Sawyer's redemption will come. He will die either for Jack, Kate or the island. Maybe all 3. He will be a willing sacrifice. And this will fly in the face of what the MIB wants to prove about humanity.
"Just like with the Man in Black, Jacob can only be killed if he doesn't speak first ... except that he said plenty to Ben before he was killed. Reason enough not to believe "Smokey" (aside from, you know, all the other lying and killing he did in this episode alone)?"
I think you are reading too much into this. The reason the MiB doesnt want Jacob to say a word (and he explains this) is that "Jacob can be very persuasive". There's nothing magical here... both Jacob and MiB are very charismatic and know that the other can sway people easily. Thus, kill them before they have a chance to talk you out of it.
Best episode ever, period..
Basically the MIB will do and say anything to get off the island. We have seen Flocke and last nights MIB make promises that they cannot keep. It appears that Jacob is the good guy trying to save this evil from escaping the island or "the wine escaping the corked bottle." This episode started out a little slow but definitely satisfied my expectations. So can Richard now be a candidate since his wife told him he must stop the MIB from leaving the island. that is/was Jacobn's job afterall.
I have been waiting for this episode for over 5 years.....
Easily in my mind the best episode of the series – more straight and to the point (with more answers) than any other.
Speculation over the years that this was a good/evil struggle and that the island represented purgatory was pretty much spot on.
At the very least the island is the gateway to hell, and could be a purgatory for those on it.
The big question I still have is what is Widmore's angle? What does he represent in this good/evil struggle?
I still think that this is going to end with Jack and Sawyer sitting on the beach or sitting on a log and Sawyer telling Jack how much he wants to kill him,
I think Sawyer is evil. His nature seems evil and deceptive. Not pure of heart. Unlike Jack.
When does the man in black morph from Locke to Sawyer?
I think everyone has it wrong. I think Smokey may actually be the good guy and Jacob.....not so much. There is just something about Jacob, something going that I just don't trust.
Best episode so far...Richard did an amazing job...and so many questions were answered...i love LOST :D:D:D:D
Last night I experienced my first Lostgasm. I LOVED this episode. It was fan-freekin-tastic. I'll leave the speculating about what it all means to the Lost fanatics. I just wanted to express my joy that the writers finally delivered a morsel.
Absolutely lived up to the hype.. I was mesmorized by this epsiode.. Hard to overlook the God-giving-Jesus-to-the-People and with richard looking like Jesus. The analogy with the wine really helped explain alot... I dont think the Man in Black meant Jacob could onyl be killed before he speaks, I believe it was intended so Richard wouldn't learn who Jacob really was. Just a great episode!!!!
Well I for one who be pretty disappointed if this island is a purgatory of some sort – what fans predicted years ago. I mean the producers are aware of all fan theories....it would be a bit "lame" not to come up with something more substantial to end the series with. But I've lasted this long, so i'll keep the faith till the finale and hope for a creative, smart and surprising end.
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