Tom Hanks came backstage after "John Adams" won for best mini-series or motion picture made for television. Hanks served as executive producer on the HBO project, which chronicled the life and times of the second president. At the podium, he took the opportunity to say California should repeal Proposition 8 (which prohibits same-sex couples from marrying). He thinks it WILL be repealed in time, and cautioned that anyone with money can put on TV ads and convince the public of something for a while.
"John Adams" co-star Laura Linney also talked politics with reporters after nabbing the prize for best performance by an actress in a mini-series or motion picture made for television. During the presidential primary, Linney supported Hillary Clinton. My colleague, Matt Carey, asked how she thinks the former First Lady will perform as the new secretary of State.
Linney said she's glad Hillary will be working for Obama and the American public. She also addressed Caroline Kennedy's quest to fill Clinton's vacant Senate seat, saying "We should be so lucky to have a capable person working for us."
There was a time when the "majority" thought that slavery was moral and that women should not vote. The fallacy in proposition 8 is that the majority have and should never decree what is moral and just. If the majority always ruled on what was "moral," then anyone in the minority – whether it be minority of race, religion, or otherwise – would have no rights in a society that claims rights for all. The forefathers of this country knew that and for that reason established a court system that ultimately was intended to look past the loudest voice in the room, and instead, at what was fair, right, and commensurate with the charter that all men were created equal and were therefore allowed certain inalienable rights. Those rights are not for the majority to decide.
I know I am days late but just read the aritcle and hope Brian sees this.
There is no God. Evolution is fact. Religion is the cause of all the worlds problems and you, Brian, are gay. Next!
Ok you say that years ago there were laws in place that today we look back on and cant believe they were laws? Yes, your right. BUT we as a community did not vote on those laws. They were put in place by a group of individuals, polititions. But California on voting day, voted down gay marriage. So if you want to overturn that decision by the voters, lets overturn every other thing we have voted on. The fact is, most Californians dont want to see gay couples married. AND WE VOTED ON IT AND THAT IS OUR RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Live and let Live,worry about your own life not that of others.
use that extra energy knit some socks or something.
Marriage in general is overrated! Commitment is the key to a better life, why do gays want to get marry?, live together and make wills to protect your love ones but please stop the nonsense already. In order to reproduce the human race needs man and woman, to have fun just go with whoever you choose!
The bile, the rancor, it’s like a visit to the coliseum. For my own chariot ride let me point out the obvious.
Gay and Lesbian people are real. They are not fictional. They are not going to disappear if the majority pretends they are not there. These are obvious facts but perhaps they have not been explored yet.
Consider the following:
I don’t like cows. In fact I hate them. Cows are an abomination before God. I hate the way they …well everything. I say we legislate that cows are not animals. I mean come on, they are so nasty and horrible. Right, new law. Cows are not allowed to exist. By the will of the majority, Cows are no longer recognized as actual animals. We can make them fish, make them swim everywhere.
Make sense? Sounds odd?
Majorities can make some odd choices.
Just understand that no legislation will make anyone stop being gay. It will however preserve a double standard for a little longer. It will maintain a second class of citizenry for a little while longer. And that’s fine. That’s the way these things go. Prop 8 is the kind of roadblock that gets thrown up but it cant last. Historically America has always tried to hold on to their status quo even while it contains such glaring grievances as Slavery and Segregation. And they have always failed to justify the continued existence of such degradations. The timing isn’t right yet but it will be.
As for logical arguments...good grief man! Are people actually trying to assert the will of a deity through logical discourse, trying to explain faith via syllogism?
How about this for logic.
All citizens are guaranteed rights by the constitution
Some citizens are gay or lesbian
Some citizens are not afforded the same rights as others
Seems simple doesn’t it. And that simply disparity will not go away. No amount of legislation or votes will make it right. 2+2 will never equal 5. Fix it or don’t, but the problem will patiently wait to be solved and there is only a single solution. One may not believe in the solution but that does not make it any less real. You can disbelieve the rain but you’re still gonna get wet.
Yadda Yadda everything you said could be applied to hetero people as well so what is your point? You try to paint sexual promiscuity as nothing but a gay problem. Are you really that ignorant?
I cannot express the extreme sadness I feel as a Christian reading the responses of so-called Christians in this thread.
First of all, God loves all his children gay or straight.
Second of all, I am not just a Christian, but an American. I love my country which grants me the right to worship as I see fit. I would never do anything to jeopardize this right, and that includes trying to force my beliefs on others. The minute we try to legislate religion, we open ourselves up to have our freedom stripped from us. It may seem good now, because they are legislating Christian values. But all it does is set a precedent that the Constitution can be rewritten (yes Prop. 8 required a REVISION to the Californian Constitution) and equality removed from a group of people as a result. Everyone is always fine with this sort of thing, until they become the group that's being targeted. Germany wasn't lost to the Nazi's over night, it started slowly with one group of people at a time.
And third, God gave man free will. Trying to force men to follow God's will by legislating his law, undermines this. God wants us to make our own choices, and hopes that we choose wisely, but accepts that we may choose poorly, and he will never stop loving us no matter what we choose. It is not our place to take choices away from people. God wanted man to have free will. If the Constitution of California granted equal rights to same sex couples, so be it. If your faith is strong and you believe in the teachings of the Bible it should have no effect on how you live your life.
It is not our place to judge. Love your neighbor, offer him the understanding you have learned from Christ. Jesus kept the company of drunkards and prostitutes. He loved the sinner and hated the sin.
No souls are saved through hatred and intolerance. Offer the word of Christ, and do your best to share the word of God with others, but do not force your beliefs on them. Treat others as you wish to be treated and respect their beliefs as you wish for them to respect yours.
We are all sinners. All sins are equal in the eyes of God. There is no need to single out one group of sinners over another. When you preach hate and intolerance you only tarnish the reputation of Christians and misrepresent the word of God.
Some of the comments being said here are ignorant and biased and not based on fact but on opinion. I have no problems with people having opinions that differ from mine. I just ask that people back up their opinions with facts from credible sources.
To the person who wrote that the Ten Commandments are the only source of what is sin and what is not sin. I take it that you have not read the New Testament. Jesus gives us two commandments that were not on the original list of commandments. To me, the two commandments Jesus gave in the New Testament are a better source for me of what is sin and what is not sin than the 10 Commandments.
Also, I believe in evolution. I believe in evolution because the fossil record indicates that Earth has been around for 4-5 billion years and organisms that appeared in the fossil record no longer appear on Earth. It is scientifically impossible for Earth to have been around for only 4000 years as some fundamentalist Christians believe. Get you head out of the sand and stop taking the Bible literally (it is impossible for a person to be swallowed by a whale). The Bible was inspired by God and was written down by people as a story to help us understand how to navigate the complex world it which we reside.
As for gay marriage and gay people in general, I was taught to be tolerant of gay people and to let them do what they want as long as they were not hurting other people. As for the people who keep stating that monogamy is not a term often associated with the gay lifestyle, that is a stereotype. I know gay people that have been with the same partner for a decade and I know other gay people who have no desire to sleep around. So quit spouting off information without any credible source to back it up.
I am sorry if this is long-winded, I just have strong feelings on certain issues that are being raised in this debate. I don't care if you disagree with me-that is your right. But please bash my opinions not me as a person.
I wonder if Jesus is rolling on the floor laughing at our stupidity or simply sitting with his head in his hands and grieving about how much we have missed the point?
I would ask all the people who have made comments such as "these people are just actors, what do they know?", if they voted for Arnold Schwartzneger or Ronald Reagan. These men also had absolutely no qualifications to govern before they were elected to office. Yet, they were elected and to listen to many people were wonderful at their elected jobs.
What I cannot understand is what effect does anyones marriage ,, regardless if it's a man and a woman, two women or two men ,, or as one person earlier stated,,a man and his dog ,, what does it have to do with me (or anyone else here.. especially all the bigots)? why should any one care what someone else is doing? If it's their choice.. THEN IT IS THEIR CHOICE !!!! It's called RESPECT people .. Respecting ones natural right to live the best way they can ,, Everyone deserves to be happy, since when do straight people have a corner market on this??
Jesus loves me and my wife. :)
I find it laughable that so many imply that gay marriage would lead to pedophiles marrying children. I'm no expert on rules of all state, but I'm fairly certain that no state allows someone to be forced into marriage. Also, most states have age limits, and some require parental approval until 18. Implying that anyone would support a pedophile/child marriage is a ridiculous argument raised solely for the shock value and has no merit whatsoever.
Marriage as a religious institution is one thing, but to deny people the right to a civil union entirely another.
In my opinion, to truly win this fight, both opposite sex and same sex couples should be fighting for recognized civil unions that have the same rights as a religious marriage and the same responsibilities. Take the church out of the argument and there might be a chance of winning.
It's kind of hard to back statistics that state homosexual parents would endanger the quality and stability of a child's "now and then" when not enough gay couples are allowed to adopt children of their own for a sufficient variable to be researched.
One of my friends has gay parents and if they hadn't adopted him I think that he would be in a MUCH worse place with two perfectly heterosexual, perfectly dysfunctional and destructive parents.
It doesn't matter if you've got a Mom and Dad or two of each, because that is just a gender label for someone in possession of a child whether biological or adopted. It is your individual choices and the choices you make with others that effect those around you, especially your children. That power is neither homosexual or heterosexual.
Let me begin by saying I like Tom Hanks. I'm not sure why a Gay couple have to be married. Live like you want. Don't force others who don't understand your sexual preference to vote for something they do not and will never understand. Do legally what you have to do to ensure that benefits are distributed to whom you want. You don't have to be married to do that. Let it go.
We all know that with only a few exceptions Hollywood and the entertainment industry as a whole just aren't very good at looking at the big picture when it comes to politics. They should do what they do best...act, write, sing, dance whatever and leave the politics to those who know what they are doing. Keep you foot out of your mouth....just shutup talking about things you don't have a clue about.....
Small except from above:
Prop 8 equals Oppression
Those who say "the law is the law" should remember well that there are several other laws from the distant (and not so distant past) which were seen as acceptable in their day. Yet when looking back upon them now, we think "that's stupid! What were they thinking!? What a bunch of barbarians!" Among them are such gems as Slavery, Prohibition, and my personal favorite "The Rule of Thumb". This last one was a law that stated that you could legally beat your wife with a stick so long as the width of said stick was not thicker than your thumb. Anything thicker than your thumb would be inhumane after all. Guess what? Those laws are gone now and with good reason too.
Minority groups are just that, a minority. Asking citizens to vote on what they believe is right is one thing. Asking citizens to vote on how others should be treated is another thing entirely. Should we allow citizens to vote on an amendment which says that Mexicans are not allowed to speak Spanish in the United States of America? Of course that is ridiculous! How stupid do I think you are anyway?
You cannot legislate morality. The government continues to think it they can and each time they are proven wrong. The government does not know better than I do what is best for me or my fellow citizens. We have to decide how far is too far and that is what the freedoms set down in the Constitution of the USA do. "...ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL." Not some men, not straight men, not religious men, not gay men, not white men, but ALL MEN (and women).
The purpose of laws is to protect its citizen from harm. We have laws against murder, theft, and so on. These protect us from others who would do us harm. Ask yourself how you are being harmed. If the answer is "I'm not" then no law is needed. If the answer is something like "I'm offended" or "it's just wrong" then no law is needed and you have successfully expressed your morality to the situation. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else. What you should not do however, is to force your opinion or beliefs upon another. That is known as oppression by those in the know. Any time that you willingly, by your action or inaction allow another to force their beliefs upon someone else, you have just participated in oppression my friends.
Another great link:
"Prop 8 – The Musical" starring Jack Black, John C. Reilly, and many more... from Jack Black
Sex without the possibility of procreation is against God's law. That's why it should only be between a man and woman who are married.
That's why contraceptives and condoms are bad, because it prevents the true purpose of sex.
That's also why women who have gone through menopause shouldn't have sex anymore, since they no longer are blessed with the chance of pregnancy.
That's also why women who have hysterectomies/are barren shouldn't have sex. Oh, and also men who have low sperm counts or a have had a vasectomy.
None of these people should ever do it with each other anymore.
Oh, and obviously, all those homos don't get to do it either.
(-said the argument with it's own built in negation.)
I agree with Tom Hanks. I'm very anti-gay, and i'm thankful that the military doesn't tolerate their actions, even though we have to let them into the military. But i'd kick a gay guy out of the military in a heart beat if i heard he was acting on his homosexual impulses....
To borrow from a previous commentater...Wow. To think this all started from a tiny 12 line 3 paragraph news peice on a websight.
Tommy starts it by mentioning so-called hollywood ethics and calls Tom Hanks a snob. Then he mentions interspecial marriage and pedophelia He ends his rant abouit how glad he is tha Hollywood is not in charge. Atleast not this week.
Ok, Hollywood is not nor has it ever been in charge of anything other than Hollywood. There used to be a statement that read as follows: "The opinions of so-and-so do not reflect that of this network or this station" or something to that effect. Tom Hanks is pro-same sex marriage it seems. Ok. So?
Then Yadda-Yadda submitted their thesis for our veiwing. It followed the standard format for most speeches. Several referances to the behaviour of gay men on the 1970's were used as well as the practices of homosexuals in Australia and the Netherlands. And they even titled the paragraphs. I would give it a high B if this were turned in for me to grade based on the research put into it. Then I'd throw it in the trash. You speak only of how disease ridden and morally filthy homosexuals are. Are the straight any better? No. Disease knows no gender. Mental Illness is not bound by gender either. Just because it's mommy and daddy does not mean their happy. Life span. Hmmm. Not everyone can live to 115. Why would you want to? Finally, they bring it on home with the last arguement straights have: Monogamy. Is it that great to begin with? That's another topic for another time. Straight monogamy means one man pledges his undieing love to one woman. Why can't it be between two men or two women? All this last bastion for the straights is is just a formality. A legal formality. Grow up people.
To quote Monty Python, "And then came Brian." Brian says Tom Hanks is out of touch. Brian says that straight marriages are a blessing for a society. Brian then goes on at length about how Tom Hanks came from a broken home and has four children from two marriages. Brian finishes up by telling Tom Hanks to keep his opinions to himself. Brian should listen to what Brian says and apply it.
No Country for Old Critics fires of the first WTF! I agree.
Loveisallaround tells us about their personal experiances with Tom Hanks. They then bring up an interesting observation about how heterosexual homes can be disfunctional too. What?! This cannot be! You mean to tell me that if a child grows up in a home that has both a male AND a female parent they won't grow up to be perfect? I believe the next verse is DUH!
Riiiight, Really?, Paul and b respond to Yadda-Yaddas diatribe. Yadda-yadda is not heard from for rest of thread.
David brings some intesting intel concerning the financial backers for the opposing side to Prop 8. How does a homemaker from Utah donate $9500? He also brings up a good point. Appart from wedding announcements the only way you would know that two men or two women where married to one another is if they told you. Once again: Grow up people. There are gay people in the world. They have been around for a long time and they will be around for a long time to come.
Brian's back. Loveisallaround is the first on his hitlist. Says she doesn't know what she's talking about and then says she's hiding something. He finishes be asking what qualifies her to speak on the topic. Brian? What makes YOU an expert on the subject? From what I've read you are a straight christian with a wife and children. This is a public forum so anyone can offer their opinion. Anyone. Brian wraps up by calling No Country for Old Critics ignorant and supporting Yadda yadda even though his speech lacked adequate facts. Then he said to be pro-sodomite is to be anti-public health. Brian likes to use the word sodomite.
The thread goes on like this: So what if gays want to marry? Brian says NO. Gays are dirty people that eat crap. They are the source for all evil in the world. Others mention that marriage should be available to all to which Brian replies marriage is a sacred and blessed event. Sacred by who? God? Which one? Interesting infobit: Of all the world religions Christianity is the youngest at 2000 years. I'm Saex-Wiccan and my religion predates christianity by 6000. There's nothing like an inquisition to drive a religion underground. Not to mention the salem witch trials.
It all turns into the Brian show for the rest of the thread. There's a term for people like Brian in the gay community: Drama Queen.
And to think it all started from a 12 line three paragraph news peice about an actor expressing his political views. Sorry if I could not get around to going through each entry like i wanted to. Please don't be mad.
You may now light your torches.
Seems to me that the proponents to quash Prop 8 are sore because majority of people in California are not in agreement with their lifestyle. They blame the Prop 8 win on a savvy marketing campaign huh? Um, I believe that the combined forces of Hollywood and the Democrats raised substantially more money than that of the Prop 8 supporters. With people like Tom Hanks, Susan Sarandon, Brangelina, and even the mayor of SF coming out in support of pro-gay marriage, wouldn't you say that the move to quash Prop 8 had savvier marketing?
It all boils down to one important principle: my values, not your values. The reason the gay rights program began was, first and foremost, gays wanted to be left alone. They did not want their personal lives pried into. SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS NO ONE ELSE's BUSINESS BUT YOUR OWN. I believe that's how it ends. No need for "outing," "gay pride," or whatever. This issue has now mutated into something more hideous. Where once the aim was to for mutual respect, it seems the new liberal dispatch is to thrust one's lifestyle in your face. Constitutionality and values are hijacked in order to promote a glamorization of a behavior.
I believe that no matter how exhaustive and correct the liberals explain the gay right to marry, conservatives will not accept it. Why? Because in the end, it boils down to personal values. A person who believes that marriage is between a man or a woman will stick to that notion forever, precisely because it is one's own belief. So in a society where majority holds a belief to be true, a minority must grant respect and not hijack the entire society to meet its own needs. Debate is futile. It's not as if the gays are being tormented anyway; they are being afforded every convenience and (politically-correct) courtesy imaginable nowadays. Why can't the minority respect the will of the majority?
I find it offensive that in a state as progressive, creative, and free-thinking as California a majority was able to use democratic process to oppress a minority group and I was shocked and disgusted that it happened.
Had it been women, ethnic groups, the elderly, or the disabled, there would have been riots in the streets but apparently it's OK to treat gays as second class citizens so there was nary a peep.
We power your entertainment industries, we plan your weddings, we style your hair, we design your clothes, and we cook your food - to name just five professions our people have excelled in and contributed from - and you still treat us as second class citizens. You want what we give you but not the world we live in while we do it or the relationships that are vital and sustaining to us.
Particularly galling is that it was largely minority and elderly voters that sold us out!
The marriage is for the purpose of procreation argument fails when couples who are childless by choice or fertility problems enter the picture since they - by the terms of the argument - should apparently not be together due to their failure to procreate.
Sigh, I'm so tired of Catholic psychosis.
Beyond that, it's going to take a lot to sell me that lying, cheating, and serial monogamizing straight people who destabilize their families and communities due to the carnage they leave behind in their self-serving/thrill-seeking wake are more deserving of legal marriage then gay couples who have dedicated their lives to being with the same person for decades.
Also, if the conservative nut-jobs REALLY cared about gays or marriage - or progressive inclusive democratic society - they would have introduced a bill making it Civil Unions FOR EVERYONE in EVERY STATE and then would allow each Religion (be it fascist or progressive) to decide what to call those civil union and which ones to recognize amongst their congregations. They also might consider education that consists of more than abstinence only education and a worldview still lost in The Dark Ages.
Of course, we live in a society were the division between church and state has pretty much collapsed and patriarchal, power-oriented, and psychotic fundamentalists have taken over.
We've become a trashy third rate country that the rest of the world laughs at and despises because of our stupidity, our corruption, our lies, our selfishness, and our ineffective social/industrial/economic management.
It's time for smart people to go into politics, business, and join the NRA.
It's time to remove the second-rate sociopaths from positions of power.
dear 'tommy' and 'yada yada yada'
we live in a constitutional republic. meaning that constitutional rights override the democratic. This process protects those segments of our society that are not a majority. Slavery did not end because of a democratic process, niether did the ban on bi-racial marriages. those freedoms were obtained through the judicial interpretation of the constitution. It can be argued that the right to marry extends to same-sex couples is a constitutional right. If so major vote of the people should not dictate otherwise.
I live in California. I am no homophobe nor am I particularly religious. I voted against same-sex marriage, and I was not influenced by anyone. I am all in favor of the same civil rights for homosexual couples as I am for heterosexual couples. I see no need for same-sex "marriage." But I DO see a need for upholding some semblance of TRADITION - if we want to survive as a culture.
First, Americans vote their preferences, whether we all agree with the outcome or not. It's how our system works.
Second, believing that marriage is between a man and a woman does not automatically make a person a homophobic or intolerant conservative. Supporting civil unions does not automatically make a person an immoral liberal.
Third, sexual orientation does not automatically make a person promiscuous.
Fourth, disease is opportunistic. It does not care what your sexual orientation is.
Fifth, comparing the civil rights of race with the civil rights of sexual orientation is misleading and not helpful or fair to either cause.
Finally, a little civility in the dialogue please, a little responsibility with the right to free speech. Hate is so destructive. As Americans, we should be better than that.
I'm not a betting man, but if I was I would bet everything I own that Brian is trapped in the closet, generally those filled with such hate toward gay people are gay themselves. Brian, why dont you meet up with Larry Craig in an airport bathroom and leave your hate in the closet.
How arrogant we are as a race that we so zealously believe those who disagree with our views are wrong. Not Christian? You never have a good point and are going to Hell. Not uber-liberal? You have your head in the mud and care nothing for the human race. The main point of my previous argument is that no one on either side of the argument can engage in a productive and constructive criticism, and that if you actually stop to think about what your moral background – Christian or otherwise- truly teaches, your behavior would embarrass you.
I do not name call. I do not listen to Hollywood or preachers or politicians to make my moral decisions. I thank God every day for granting me a solid moral upbringing, an active mind, and the courage to think for myself. I doubt he created the capacity for individual thought for us to respond to everything in a robotic, uniform way. I am sorry so many have to subscribe to hateful rhetoric and the twisting of words and ideas other than your own to make what you think is a point.
To say that allowing homosexual couples to enter into legal unions would lead lead to pedophile-child and man-beast couplings is categorically ridiculous. We are talking about the relationship between two consenting adults – key words "consenting" and "adults." Just because some people are not as good at crafting their words before writing or saying something does not mean that they want to be able to marry their favorite pet or hook up with their five year neighbor. To imply so is sick on many levels. I realize that none of this will affect anyone, but at least I refuse to remain silent in a forum full of hate – on both sides. When are we going to learn that hate and anger does not hurt only the people to whom it is directed? It corrodes your soul and your life. Spend time improving yourselves and let others worry about themselves.
I was raised in a Christian home and I was taught that homosexuality is an abomination before God. Until my early 20s I had never met a gay person. I have to say they were no different than the straight friends I had. I did see them with their significant others and saw how loving they were towards each other and never gave it a second thought...until my son was born and at his 3rd birthday party he saw my friend Linda and her new girlfriend come in. Linda was dressed in a very cute short dress; showing off her recent low lights...her girlfriend was not so feminine. I saw the look on my son's eyes when I introduced Linda's new girl "jenny". As soon as they both walked away my son said "mommy is jenny a boy or a girl?" I have to say I didn’t know what to answer. Obviously she is a girl but then as a parent you already know what the next question will be...."then why does she look like a boy?" And if I say he is a boy... "then why does she have a girl name?" all I said was "jenny" is Linda's friend. It was after that day that I began to think about how gay marriage would affect my son...I though well as long as he has a mom and dad at home we shouldn’t have a problem. Then my husband who is a teacher said to me well pretty soon gay parents will request that books describing/explaining/containing gay families be included at the school library. Then just like "winter holidays" replaced Christmas holidays at school, so will "parents day" be replacing Mothers day or fathers day. As I sat there I though well, I do want my child to learn that there are different people in this world, but would I want there to be a book in the school library about the girl who has a pedophile for a dad, or a book about the mom ho makes her life as a prostitute, or the dad who is a gambling addict, and so on. I have to say that as mom this is not a simple issue. This cannot be solved with a simple yes or no vote. As adults we have to stop being selfish. If we are going to think about how this will affect the kids, then we also have to think about how divorce between a mom and dad affects them, and how a cheating spouse affects them and so on. I know kids can be taught to be tolerant but as a child the world is already so big and confusing...I would like to keep my child's innocence intact for as long as I can, and I know many parents that feel that way.
If everyone had as much passion for the serious issues at hand; we wouldn't be in the economic mess that we are in; our jobs would not have been shipped to other countries; Let's take the engery that this topic brings and focus on serious issues;
Live and let Live; Love who you love; Marry would your heart belongs to.
Wow – if all the energy used in this discussion was put toward somthing constructive, this country may actually solve some of it's problems. As a school psychologist, I see damaged children everyday. Mostly it comes from hate filled homes NOT from the titles of the people living there. I don't not care if there is 1 adult, more than one or what gender. Are they teaching caring, tolerance, using your gifts to help other people? Or are they focusing on how much 'better' they are than others?
"Marriage may be more to you, but in a legal sense, the only way gay marriage could affect you is by you witnessing a ring on someone’s finger."
That is stupid to think. Sodomite marriage would mean redefining roles of husbands and wives, redefining what marriage is, redefining what family is. It would mean a confusing mess.
"Nobody’s asking for marriage between a man and an animal or an adult and an underage child."
What will stop that from being next once we legalize sodomite marriage? The same argumentation can and will be used. This is the confusion that conventional and situational morality brings.
"The primary reason for marriage is having children? I’m in a heterosexual relationship and am planning on getting married but not having kids."
So you are most likely in a fornicating relationship and now you will seek to legalize your fornication by getting married. You do have a low opinion of marriage and family. I hope your pets will give you the same comfort as my wonderful children give me.
Its funny, Europe is being threaten by the large numbers of muslims, because of the simple fact that muslim families have more babies then the more "enlighten" secular european families. Same thing here in America, fundamentalist Christians and mormons tend to have larger families than liberals do.
"So what’s the difference between a gay couple not having kids and a hetero couple not having kids?"
Because a sodomite couple can't have kids without outside help. Their children will always be coupled with someone else's genetics. So their children will never truly represent their union.
"This whole comment section has degenerated into an ignorant, hate-filled mess, and it saddens me to see such insane statements against gay marriage stated here.
Perhaps you all believe the world is flat, too?"
Well look who added to this messy conversation. I tell you this, those who believe in evolution are the same as those who believed in the flat earth theory. Both theories are founded on impossible scientific requirements.
Everyone is so quick to bad mouth others just because their opinion differs from that of your own, it makes me sick.
What does it solve? At the end of the day you still think the same way you did before, and the person who's opinion you dislike still thinks the way they did before. All you've done is ranted pointlessly.
"So is that all marriage is to you? A band of gold and silver? Your not even qualified to comment on this topic. Next!"
Marriage may be more to you, but in a legal sense, the only way gay marriage could affect you is by you witnessing a ring on someone's finger. Nobody's asking for marriage between a man and an animal or an adult and an underage child. If two consenting adults choose to have a ceremony or court wedding, that's their business.
The primary reason for marriage is having children? I'm in a heterosexual relationship and am planning on getting married but not having kids. So what's the difference between a gay couple not having kids and a hetero couple not having kids? Gay couples *can* have kids btw. Donor eggs/sperm/etc. My younger sister is a test-tube baby that was carried by another woman because my stepmother has cancer and cannot give birth. They're a heterosexual couple, yet there was nothing "natural" in the way they conceived a child in a lab rather than via coitus. So what's the difference between them and a gay couple who chooses the same thing?
This whole comment section has degenerated into an ignorant, hate-filled mess, and it saddens me to see such insane statements against gay marriage stated here.
Perhaps you all believe the world is flat, too?
"I understand both sides of the argument. I, too, was raised to believe that homosexuality is an abomination to God. However, I grew up and moved out. I interacted with individuals from all walks of life, and thus my views have changed."
What has happened to you is called apostasy. Too bad you were not raised to believe in the wonderful message of the Bible.
"What Christians tend to overlook is tolerance. Tolerance does not necessarily mean acceptance, but it also would exclude the extreme negativity, the hate, and the violence toward homosexuals. "
Are you serious? I guess you never heard of the sodomite attacks on Christian churches in San Francisco? Just look at this thread here. Who is doing the majority of the name calling and who are the ones that have been the recipients?
"Think about how many times you have thought about if not acted upon cheating on a spouse and how many sexual partners you had before getting married. "
Uh, I was a virgin when I got married and thinking about an act is FAR different from actually doing the act. Some of us have not received our morality training from Hollywood.
"If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, which is your right as a human being, remember that all sins – even the thousands you commit – are equal in the eyes of God. So, what right do you have to throw stones?"
So now we will use the Bible to attack me but not the Bible to condemn the act of homosexuality? Interesting. BTW, you took the stone throwing reference out of context.
If you believe something is a sin, guess what? You have to believe the 10 commandments. It is the only SOURCE there is that tells us what is sin and what is not.
So I guess you believe in God but not the words He has written.
"How many of us (meaning straight folk in general) are only in a marriage because it is too difficult to get out of? How many of us are being mentally, physically, and sexually abused in a relationship but won’t leave being of some moral obligation? How many of us are cheating on our spouses and bringing STDs to our oblivious spouses? Be honest with yourselves. Our version of marriage is not any better or worse than what theirs would be."
Believe it or not, MOST marriages are no where near what you are describing. No one said marriage is not difficult but the bottom line is this: marriage is not for us to redefine nor should the majority be forced to by the 2-3% of the American population that considers themselves to be gay.
"Let them adopt a child who needs a family. Let them know the joys of a lifetime monogomous committment that can be shared with everyone without shame or fear."
So I guess a child doesn't have to have a mother and father? Its funny, when a child grows up in a single parent household, we call that a dysfunctional family but when two men or two women want to raise a child, we call that their civil right.
As for monogomous, that is one word you cannot use to typically or generally describe the gay lifestyle.
People are looking at Prop 8 all wrong!!!!!!!!!!!! I think we did the homosexual community a favor. Have you noticed how high the divorce rate is these days? Ha, they are better off. I wish there was a law banning marriage between a man and a woman, I would be able to tell my girlfriend when she askes when were getting married every single day, "sorry babe, its illigal. I wish we could get married but we cant." Where is my salvation from the ball and chain? Huh? So everyone who is upset over prop 8, get over it!! You could be stuck in the Middle East where if your suspected of being gay they stone you to death. So you dont have it too bad ok!! Everyone needs to lighten up, is anyone saying that two gay people cant love each other? NO, plus gay couple still get the tax breaks and all the other perks of marriage in the laws eyes. So all they are missing right now is a little piece of paper that says your married? Tell you what, you call me up and i'll mail you a napkin with the words "Husband & Husband" on it. Will that make you happy? Most of you who are complaining about not being able to marry will get divorced anyways. I consider everyone who wants to overturn prop 8 "UN-American". Your basically saying our way of life is wrong. We put an issue up for a vote, it was voted on and became law and just because it doesnt fit for you.... its gotta go. Well maybe you need to go! Funny thing is... I could care less about gays or what they do, i'm just tired of them complaining. We all voted, you lost. Have a nice day. Cry babies!!!
"First off, Prop 8’s backers were mostly in the form of large contributions by religious organizations. In particular, the Mormon church, which operated phone banks and poured tons of money into scare campaigns."
So was this in the case with the other 40+ states who passed similar measures? I guess organizations like the American Way and other intolerant gay support groups don't have millions pumped into their coffers? Give me a break. Your intolerant.
"In the end, all you would see if Prop 8 were repealed, is a band of silver or gold on someone’s hand that might not otherwise be there. What do you care if someone has a ring on their finger or not? Are there even enough gay people living in your area that you’d notice? What are you really afraid of? How many of you know a gay person?"
So is that all marriage is to you? A band of gold and silver? Your not even qualified to comment on this topic. Next!
"And Brian, the orifice attack is a redundant and rhetorical one. Regardless of what oral activity, some form of bodily fluid is being transmitted. You’re simply focusing on a side that seems degrading to further you’re point."
However the exchange of bodily fluids between a loving man and woman in the bonds of marriage can result in the welcome creation of life. This can never happen with gays. Their exchange of fluids can only result in barrenness and in a lot of cases, disease.
"It sounds like you are not arguing against gay marriage, but rather you are arguing to terminate gayness altogether? Unless you can provide me more logical reasons that the marriage itself will degrade public health, your health argument applies more to your obvious desire to ban gay activity."
The Gay lifestyle is itself a filthy lifestyle whether it expresses itself in "marriage" or not. But you like to twist words around with some silly sort of logical argumentation.
Marriage degrades nothing, it is a blessed institution. Gays degrade everything they get involved with, most of all themselves. I am a man, I have loved men and do love men, does that make me gay, nope. I am happily married to a beautiful woman. So what makes a person gay? Is it their love for the same sex? No. It is their perverted desire to have sexual union with the same sex and for a man, that is either via the mouth or the rectum and the results can never result in procreation, which should be a primary goal of marriage.
"I see you tossing around phrases like “ad hominem,” so you are at least rudimentarily familiar with the basics of logical arguments. Some friendly advice for you: value judgments and religion do not stand up as pillars of logic, since they vary from person to person."
But logic can only exist in a Christian world-view. It is the Christian worldview that provides the foundation for absolute standards of logic and morality, without which, a society cannot exist. I do not believe in cultural conventions when it comes to logic and morality, do you? If you say yes then you cannot condemn anything, including Hitler and the Nazi's murder of millions of Jews. Nazi Germany's murder of jews was the result of their conventional morality and who are we to judge them! (hypothetical argument here)
Gays and other proponents of human rights actually have to borrow from the Christian worldview to argue for their rights. I for one support human rights for gays but I do not believe that they have the right to everything, including the sacred institution of marriage. I will argue with them for their right to a job, to a place to live, to live a life free from the violent of actions of others, etc. meanwhile I will continue to call them to repent of their sexual perversion and see forgiveness through the only Savior of sinners, Jesus Christ. Why? Because I love gays and want what is eternally best for them.
I don't understand why ignorant people call those who do not support gay marriage homophobics, those who do not support abortion sexists, and those who did not support Barack Obama racist. If u ask me that namecalling is ignorant and prejudice. If gay marriage is supported based on the premise of "love is love" and you should be able to get married to anyone you want as long as you love them, what's going to stop someone to call for the legalization of pedaphiles getting married to kids. There needs to be a clear definition of marriage people.
How can anybody pass judgment and say that anyone should have to go through life alone. Absolutley absurd. If two adults want to marry, more power to them. Choose love over fear. Reject our whole system in the name of the miracle of life. Even CNN exhists to perpetuate the "Status Quo". If you read it keep an objectionable head, it's all there to confuse you. If we as a society could get one, just one coherent thought from one side of our brains to the other then we'd really have something to be proud of.
The last time I checked, actors were citizens with the right to free speech just like you folks carrying on with your homophobic bla bla bla. I'd much rather hear someone talk about something of substance like politics (even if I don't agree with them), then the inane questions you hear on the red carpet "how do you feel about being nominated?'....oh duh.
@ Brian: Spoken like a true-blue Bible-beater.. And a lousy spell-checker at that... Seriously, if you honestly believe in the venom you spew in the form of words, then you CANNOT tell me that you are on the side of the angels... God is about loving thy neighbor, not slitting thy neighbor's throat for not behaving as thou doth... Whatever happened to turning the other cheek? I'm not gay, mind you, but what a person does in their own home, as long as it doesn't involve/affect/have anything to do with children, is nobody's business but their own!
Leave your politics at the door! When are these self-important arrogant stars going to learn some manners? You are not invited to an awards show to spout out your political views. Use some other mechanism for your nutty preaching. If no one wants to listen via interviews, then you'll know we're not interested. To take a captive audience watching an awards show and force feed them your drivel is rude nonsense. Hollywood actors need to start using their brains and thinking like individuals rather than sheep.
Please address the question of how 2 people getting married affects public health.
I mean to ask this: If two people are living together as a couple already, and perhaps raising a child as a couple already, how would the public heath be worsened by their obtaining a marriage license? Do you believe that there is some sort of feces-laden cake served at gay marriage receptions? (kidding)
It sounds like you are not arguing against gay marriage, but rather you are arguing to terminate gayness altogether? Unless you can provide me more logical reasons that the marriage itself will degrade public health, your health argument applies more to your obvious desire to ban gay activity.
I see you tossing around phrases like "ad hominem," so you are at least rudimentarily familiar with the basics of logical arguments. Some friendly advice for you: value judgments and religion do not stand up as pillars of logic, since they vary from person to person.
Please, I'd really like to gain some insight to your thoughts without things degrading into an Internet shouting match.
Allowing gay couples to marry in no way threatens my marriage or that of my parents, grandparents, other relatives, or friends. Explain to me what our society would be like if heterosexual couples did not have the option to marry. What would promiscuity mean then? How many STDs would be floating around then? The studies cited prove nothing, as any good scientist knows. A number of different variables could account for these results, and a number of different variables could have caused the links. Maybe gay people are more honest about their sexual history than straight people are. Maybe these individuals have suffered more sexual abuse as children. Maybe the researchers had an agenda. Many things are possible. Even so, I guarantee you that even if so many individuals are promiscuous and bend to the will of the stereotypes, many individuals are fully committed to one other human being and have no greater desire than being with each other for as long as their lives would allow.
I understand both sides of the argument. I, too, was raised to believe that homosexuality is an abomination to God. However, I grew up and moved out. I interacted with individuals from all walks of life, and thus my views have changed. What Christians tend to overlook is tolerance. Tolerance does not necessarily mean acceptance, but it also would exclude the extreme negativity, the hate, and the violence toward homosexuals. Think about how nasty your verbage is when you are speaking from your moral highground. Think about how many times you have thought about if not acted upon cheating on a spouse and how many sexual partners you had before getting married. If you believe that homosexuality is a sin, which is your right as a human being, remember that all sins – even the thousands you commit – are equal in the eyes of God. So, what right do you have to throw stones?
How many of us (meaning straight folk in general) are only in a marriage because it is too difficult to get out of? How many of us are being mentally, physically, and sexually abused in a relationship but won't leave being of some moral obligation? How many of us are cheating on our spouses and bringing STDs to our oblivious spouses? Be honest with yourselves. Our version of marriage is not any better or worse than what theirs would be.
I don ot believe that the State should force the Church to marry homosexual couples. That decisions should be left to churches, synagogues, mosques, and other religious entities. Church and State should remain separate, as it is supposed to be. However, let them see each other in the hospital. Let them make legal decisions on their spouse's behalf. Let them adopt a child who needs a family. Let them know the joys of a lifetime monogomous committment that can be shared with everyone without shame or fear. Let consenting adult enter into legal unions.
I'm sorry, but these are actors. They have no more insight into politics than any other average Joe or Jane. Their political opinion means no more to me than the crazy rantings of the homeless crazy man who shouts at me from across the street. Being an actor or even an accomplished actor doesn't mean they know more about politics or that somehow their opinion is more valuable than mine or any other voters. While I actually agree with Hanks on this one (Shocking, I know), winning an award doesn't afford him more credibility to talk politics. Newsflash to Hanks... at awards shows, people want to hear about your work that got you the award, not about your political pet project. I for one am tired of Hollywood's constant "chiming in" with their opinions on political matters and present themselves to the public as some sort of authority on the matter.
Comments such as those contained herein are further reason for myself and many others to be woefully concerned about the state of mankind and peoples incessant need to constantly judge based on one-sided opinionated resources.
Maybe if people where more concerned with the advancement and involvement in "the peoples" interests rather than their own, issues like Prop. 8 would be a backburner issue, further from sucking precious resources from our government's focus on problems that really need fixing.
Regardless of anti- or pro-gay feelings, people (and the media) really need to let the simple circumstances of letting people "be" people go and focus on things that are broken and detrimental to society. Gay/Lesbian marriage rights is "people" marriage rights. Stopping/disrupting people's rights is what causes civil unrest...a worthless cause, in my opinion.
And Brian, the orifice attack is a redundant and rhetorical one. Regardless of what oral activity, some form of bodily fluid is being transmitted. You're simply focusing on a side that seems degrading to further you're point.
does anyone else see a striking parallel between how people feel about gay marriage and how people USED TO FEEL about interracial marriage? time will tell, but i think the tides will change. just like they did back in what now seem like the dark ages.
Astonishing, the lack of education, the ignorance and the intolerance. I'll bet you each one of these homophobes considers himself a good Christian.
Worst case of homophobia I've ever seen.
Jeez they're just evolutionary dead ends, nothing more.
Oh, you don't believe in that either.... Nevermind, just continue spewing hatred.
LoveIsAllAround, I think you are deceived and I also believe you are just not telling the complete truth about your knowledge of gay couples. You too come from a broken home and therefore you feel qualified to promote sodomite marriages and attack heterosexual marriage? You have nothing to compare them too except to your own very limited and twisted experience.
Tom Hanks has 4 children from 2 different women. He himself comes from a tragic and broken childhood and has never known the blessing and joy of being raised by the same loving mother AND father. However just because he has missed out on that wonderful experience, doesn't make him qualified to promote a view that has and always will be condemn.
Ultimately, what you are saying LoveisAllAround is that mothers are not important to raising children nor are fathers important to raising children. With a sodomite marriage, you will only get 2 fathers or 2 mothers. Its funny, in your case, I assume you were missing a father or mother in your upbringing and yet you described your home as broken. You simply are not being consistent.
No Country for Old Critics' comments are the typical ignorant ad hominem attack and is not worth even addressing. The only problem I have with Yadda's comments is that he doesn't list in his list of accurate facts the gross amount of feces that sodomites, especially gay men, consume in their sexual deviant behavior. Sodomites are a serious public health risk. To be pro-sodomite, it to be anti-public health.
Wow, there's quite a bit of mudslinging here. Had to interject something.
First off, Prop 8's backers were mostly in the form of large contributions by religious organizations. In particular, the Mormon church, which operated phone banks and poured tons of money into scare campaigns.
Some estimates are in upwards of $20 million, but the church funneled the money through private individuals. All I can say is it's a bit fishy that a "homemaker" from Utah can donate $9,500. See for yourself:
In the end, all you would see if Prop 8 were repealed, is a band of silver or gold on someone's hand that might not otherwise be there. What do you care if someone has a ring on their finger or not? Are there even enough gay people living in your area that you'd notice? What are you really afraid of? How many of you know a gay person?
Prop 8 was a vote by the public, yes, but it was manipulated smear tactics and scaremongering that got the job done. Learn some history:
Yadda yadda: wow. just wow. A report that states that "...a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV"
Just wow. Sounds like a really accurate and reliable study. And don't worry, no one thinks you are a homophobe.
The "will" of the people does not give them the right to deny others civil rights...prop 8 should never have been allowed to be on the ballot. Civil rights are NOT determined by the people!
Re: Yadda yadda
Typical conservative chessgame – manipulate the pieces until they win.
The most fascinating statistic has always been the following: 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
That's why we always cite sources.
I was very glad to see that in your explanation of the horrid nature of homosexuals, you carefully cited your sources.
Interestingly enough, I did my best to find the study you referenced. And so far -I haven't found a single reference to this study (besides your own).
I used to work with Tom Hanks and he is one of the most level-headed, kind and just plain outstanding persons you'd ever want to know. We used to jokingly call him Tom Terrific. Brian above doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. I know many gay couples, most of them have kids & they're wonderful parents. On the other hand, most of my friends and family whose parents were heterosexual come from broken and disfunctional homes, mine included. Imagine that.
My god, the ignorance & homophobia posted here is frightening, especially Yadda Yadda's craplist. How marriages between monogamous gays & lesbians promotes promiscuity, disease & mental illness is beyond me. WTF?!
Tom Hanks is out of touch with society and history. Healthy families, i.e. families where parents are male and female and where children have a mommy and daddy (not 2 mommies or 2 daddies) are a blessing to any society or nation. Tom Hanks thinks the majority who supports the traditional (and Biblical and Historical) definition of marriage are dumb and are only convinced of the traditional view of marriage by two minute ads promoting Proposition 8. Tom Hanks lacks common moral sense and his involvement in children films is very troubling. Tom Hanks, you have a low opinion of the public and of marriage and family. Its no wonder with the broken and confused childhood that you yourself have experienced. With your current track record, i.e having a broken marriage and family, you really should keep your elitist opinion to yourself.
Um, Tom? Hate to tell you this, but it was the will of the people that drove the success of Prop 8, not some savvy TV marketing campaign.
Typical liberal chessgame – manipulate the pieces until they win.
Intolerance towards gays isn't homophobia, BTW. Just because I don't accept your behavior, doesn't mean I'm intolerant and that straw man fallacy doesn't cut it. Here's the facts about homosexuality:
Prior to the AIDS epidemic, a 1978 study found that 75 percent of white, gay males claimed to have had more than 100 lifetime male sex partners: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250-499; 15 percent claimed 500- 999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. Levels of promiscuity subsequently declined, but some observers are concerned that promiscuity is again approaching the levels of the 1970s. The medical consequence of this promiscuity is that gays have a greatly increased likelihood of contracting HIV/AIDS, syphilis and other STDs.
Similar extremes of promiscuity have not been documented among lesbians. However, an Australian study found that 93 percent of lesbians reported having had sex with men, and lesbians were 4.5 times more likely than heterosexual women to have had more than 50 lifetime male sex partners. Any degree of sexual promiscuity carries the risk of contracting STDs.
Common sexual practices among gay men lead to numerous STDs and physical injuries, some of which are virtually unknown in the heterosexual population. Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs. In addition to diseases that may be transmitted during lesbian sex, a study at an Australian STD clinic found that lesbians were three to four times more likely than heterosexual women to have sex with men who were high-risk for HIV.
It is well established that there are high rates of psychiatric illnesses, including depression, drug abuse, and suicide attempts, among gays and lesbians. This is true even in the Netherlands, where gay, lesbian and bisexual (GLB) relationships are far more socially acceptable than in the U.S. Depression and drug abuse are strongly associated with risky sexual practices that lead to serious medical problems.
The only epidemiological study to date on the life span of gay men concluded that gay and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy.
Monogamy, meaning long-term sexual fidelity, is rare in GLB relationships, particularly among gay men. One study reported that 66 percent of gay couples reported sex outside the relationship within the first year, and nearly 90 percent if the relationship lasted five years.
YAY FOR HOLLYWOOD VALUES!!!! NOT!!!!!! Wat a snob hanks is. Guess wat he EXACTLY tsaid that CNN won tell u: "I believe anyone should be able to get married to anyone they want" So i guess i can marry my dog...or some pedaphile can marry a 10 year old girl...Good thing Hollywood doesn't run america...at least not for a week..
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